Since When Has Sylvanas...

Lore Story Forum
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06/13/2018 10:15 AMPosted by Samariyu
To answer OP:

1) A lot of people are misunderstanding what OP is asking with this one. Saying "she was always rageful" does not answer his question. He's asking for violent fits of rage.

So to answer your question, OP, we've only seen anything remotely similar to that on two occasions. One, there was a similar scene in War Crimes (also a Golden imagining...). Two, when we brought her necklace back to her in that one questline. She was not violent, but she did snap at us a little. So even this example is shaky. There was also a time in Silverpine after a group of Forsaken had been ambushed and killed by Ivar. She exclaimed they'd get vengeance for it. Also a shaky example.

But other than that, I can't think of a time with her snapping. Golden is the only one who's shown her snapping violently, first in War Crimes then in BtS.

But even when she was ambushing Arthas in WC3, her anger was extremely calm, collected, and focused. It was not a snap action, but a calculated move.

2) Like I said in my above comment, I'm struggling to think of a time when she's displayed paranoia. She's always been guarded and played things close to the chest. And while it may make sense given all the coups and betrayals she's survived for her to be paranoid, we've literally never seen it before this book. I'm trying to think of a time, yet drawing a blank.

3) It's not exactly clear when she started believing undeath was better than life, since this is a view she only recently explicitly stated. However, she did have default text in Silverpine reading "In undeath, we are reborn." So it's safe to say that she at least started viewing undeath in a positive light back in Cata.

4) We don't know. She's never said such a thing before, or expressed a desire to attempt it. Back in vanilla, there was one apothecary who expressed a desire to wipe out the living, and this view is often attributed to Sylvanas. However, that apothecary also worked for Varimathras, and we never heard Sylvanas affirm that view.

5) This is new lore in BtS. Sylvanas has always demanded loyalty to herself and the Forsaken, but only to those who chose to join the Forsaken, and never before to such extremes. And as stated in Traveller 2, if you want to leave the Forsaken then all you need to do is politely ask. There was also a captain in Silverpine who, after witnessing the death of his unit, retired from military service. But the level of control we see in BtS within the Forsaken's daily lives is unprecedented. The Forsaken have always been a highly unified militaristic entity, but never before were their personal freedoms so restricted. For instance, there is a family of Forsaken at Dreadwake's Landing who have continued to run the family business they had in life into their undeath as well.

Bottom line, Golden doesn't really know Forsaken lore or aesthetic and is making it up as she goes.

Perfect!
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Lots of people referencing Wraith on, but she turned on Garithos the second she was done with him in WC3. When she ambushed arthas in WC3 she wanted to torture him. She also had her banshees possess some Ogers who were later set free by the crown of domination in Alteric. She sends adventurers to put them down in vanilla. In BC when she gets her pendent she lashes out, but shows a deeper emotion is buried under that. (She mostly acts out of seething hate rather than rage)

I don't think Sylvanas is as bad a person as everyone makes her out to be. Actions aside as the OP says, she lost her home in life, despite having unbeatable wards and a well experienced ranger force, to what was her peoples closest allies and a traitor. Then in undeath it's not like the alliance or horde came rushing to her aid. The scarlet crusade, worgen, alliance assassins, and scourge all dogged the forsaken starting zones just in vanilla. After Wraith she knows what is at stake, death for the forsaken might mean an eternity of suffering. She is more like Vlad the Impaler, for anyone but her own people she'll always be seen as a villain.

Not to mention no one even considers the toll everything she has been through must have on her mind. She is a high elf living in a sewer with no friends or family. And when she kills herself there is no peaceful rest, just eternal suffering. And the knowledge that her death would end all the forsaken's lives.
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Just a note about question 3. I've updated the text to make it clearer:

06/13/2018 07:14 AMPosted by Pellex
3. When did she start believing undeath was better than life? What did she say about it? (EDIT: Bolded because a lot of people are answering the question "When did she start believing undeath was better than death?"--and that one is pretty clear. Also, I want to know what evidence we have of her changing opinions, not just a guess at how her mind was working at certain times.)

Also:

06/13/2018 10:57 AMPosted by Granfaloon
I don't think Sylvanas is as bad a person as everyone makes her out to be.

While it's nice (and rare atm) to have a post that says something nice about Sylvanas, I don't want to see this thread get derailed by arguing over whether she's evil or not. So, those of you who disagree, please ... post on a different thread? There are plenty to choose from.
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I believe wanting to wipe out life started in Rise of the Lich King. Unless I’m wrong, she blames humans for giving birth to Arthas.

As for paranoia? I feel it started since Wrath. Putress and the Dreadlord didn’t just betray her, they took a lot of her people from her.

Then there’s her fear of the afterlife. After that, Goddfrey killed her and cost her 3 Valkyrie. There’s Koltira not being ruthless enough, and maybe you can argue Galen.

She’s had many people betray her, and some of it has been deadly.
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In reading this, there seems to be SOME collective agreement:

Sylvanas Pre-Cata is the girl we all knew and loved.

Cata-Legion, Sylvanas had an...arc...of sorts. Finding a new purpose for her people. Maintaining Undeath for fear of WoWHell. Growing the ranks of the Forsaken with fallen enemies. She is appointed Warchief through her brave, heroic, and damning choice to flee.

Truly complex and different for an rpg character.

Now, BfA/BtS Sylvanas?

If there is any redemption for her, it will be in a new writer before she is finished.

The current story team...

If she exploded into a cloud of Ewoks wielding Lite Brites and Ring Pops...I wouldn't bat an eye.
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I think everything listed is really a symptom of Sylvanas desperately trying to convince herself of things she doesn't really believe, stubbornly doubling down on ridiculousness rather than own up to her emotional flaws. Not just fits of rage, she's recently been extremely prone to letting her emotions overtake her decision-making. She had a fit when Vereesa rejected her, she let her sisters live at the spire, she killed the 'loyal' Desolate council members when she felt she was losing control of the situation.

It wouldn't shock me if they decided to reveal a "Forsaken slowly regain their complex emotions over time after reanimation, and Sylvanas has been dead long enough that she's struggling to suppress them, causing her to be twice as awful in a self deluding attempt to convince herself she isn't becoming week" arc.
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06/13/2018 02:20 PMPosted by Galka
I think everything listed is really a symptom of Sylvanas desperately trying to convince herself of things she doesn't really believe, stubbornly doubling down on ridiculousness rather than own up to her emotional flaws. Not just fits of rage, she's recently been extremely prone to letting her emotions overtake her decision-making. She had a fit when Vereesa rejected her, she let her sisters live at the spire, she killed the 'loyal' Desolate council members when she felt she was losing control of the situation.

It wouldn't shock me if they decided to reveal a "Forsaken slowly regain their complex emotions over time after reanimation, and Sylvanas has been dead long enough that she's struggling to suppress them, causing her to be twice as awful in a self deluding attempt to convince herself she isn't becoming week" arc.


That may be where Golden is going with all that stuff she came up with. All depends on what her "theatre experience" tells her to do.
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A lot of people are giving Golden heck lately because they do not like the direction of BfA. Honestly, I understand, the faction conflict is over-used, and I think it would make more sense if the Alliance and Horde were trying to make piece, but keep getting set back by hateful sub-groups of their faction. Still, I do not blame Golden, I do not think she had any say in that decision, and she is trying to make the best use of characters in that setting.

She has always been one of WoW’s better novelists (Though, Richard Knaack doesn’t set the bar high). Aside from William King’s Illidan, I would say Arthas, Tides of War and War Crimes are my favorite. Yes, it wasn’t perfect
 Tyrande in War Crimes wasn’t amazing, but she was better than how others have portrayed her. Jaina and Kalec love story in Tides of War was extremely boring, but Kindy Sparkshine and Pained made up for it.

Arthas was amazing, I have nothing bad to say about it.

I think Sylvanas is an amazing character, and I get the feeling that what they have planned for her is not what we expect. I do not think she is going to be killed, and I do not think she is going to be redeemed. I think the Horde is move away from what Thrall wanted, I think what we learned from Garrosh’s reign was that the Horde does not want peace, they do not want to be left to die in the desert, they do not want to slowly rot away, and have their lands slowly taken back by the living. The Horde is going to unapologetically do what they need to do to secure themselves in this world. That is a selfish thing to do, but this is also about survival for them, not heroism. I think that is this “Morally-grey” aspect that Blizzard is talking about. It’s not ACTUALLY morally=grey, except with the assumption that this is about life and death for the Horde.
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06/13/2018 11:05 AMPosted by Pellex
Just a note about question 3. I've updated the text to make it clearer:

06/13/2018 07:14 AMPosted by Pellex
3. When did she start believing undeath was better than life? What did she say about it? (EDIT: Bolded because a lot of people are answering the question "When did she start believing undeath was better than death?"--and that one is pretty clear. Also, I want to know what evidence we have of her changing opinions, not just a guess at how her mind was working at certain times.)

Also:

06/13/2018 10:57 AMPosted by Granfaloon
I don't think Sylvanas is as bad a person as everyone makes her out to be.

While it's nice (and rare atm) to have a post that says something nice about Sylvanas, I don't want to see this thread get derailed by arguing over whether she's evil or not. So, those of you who disagree, please ... post on a different thread? There are plenty to choose from.

I mean bad existentially, like put aside her actions and just speaking to her character. Garrosh was always borderline racist and short sighted with an even shorter temper. Sylvanas might say things like, "I'll be damned if I take orders from a troll." But she personally carries voljin off the beach in Legion. So I am trying to say that it seems like her bouts of rage or snide remarks are not wholly representative of her personality.

She shows Garrosh the Valkyr and he asks her how she is better than the Lich King, something that should have set her off, but instead she just gives a snide remark about serving the horde. In the same conversation she almost seems upset that he suggested sustaining the forsaken as a bad thing. In the comic with her sisters we see she planned to kill them, but stopped short, suggesting she'll get them later. It seems like she is not 100% on board with the things she says, as if her outbursts and snide comments are a cover for what she really feels.
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06/13/2018 02:46 PMPosted by Akiyass
it would make more sense if the Alliance and Horde were trying to make piece, but keep getting set back by hateful sub-groups of their faction.
Yeah, like that subgroup run by the world's biggest warmonger since Garrosh: Sylvanas!
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06/13/2018 03:03 PMPosted by Threeslotbag
Yeah, like that subgroup run by the world's biggest warmonger since Garrosh: Sylvanas!


Not sure how Sylvanas has been a Warmonger... All the war she has waged in recent years has been under Garrosh's orders...

But also, Imagine if Anduin managed to secure peace with Sylvanas... How would Genn react? How would Jaina? I think that would have been a better direction, but oh well.
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Lets try this:

1. When did she become prone to fits of violent rage? What examples have we seen from her before now?


It depends on what you consider a fit of violent rage. I think the problem is that most people think uncontrolled, berserk rage. She has never done that, including the book. So, if that is your meaning, I am inclined to ask: huh? If you mean violence caused by a deep rage. Always. Basically rage has been her primary motive since she was raised. It is kind of a core part of who she has been.

2. When did she start acting paranoid? What were her paranoid actions?


Not sure that is a correct word. When talking with Nathanos on the wall she lays out a rather devious idea for what Anduin 'might' be doing. Nathanos comments that is sounds more like something she would do, and she agrees. Even after Calia is revealed, she still doesn't think Anduin was behind it. That is not really a paranoid person. Her concern about losing power in the Undercity is actually a justified fear. It is a very possible outcome, and one she has seen happen before.

I think in her case she sees what she might do in that situation and worries someone might be trying that with her. And she sees things that could lead to a loss in her power, and tries to stop those possibilities. While some of those fears are likely unfounded, I would not call her paranoid.

3. When did she start believing undeath was better than life? What did she say about it? (EDIT: Bolded because a lot of people are answering the question "When did she start believing undeath was better than death?"--and that one is pretty clear. Also, I want to know what evidence we have of her changing opinions, not just a guess at how her mind was working at certain times.)


Based on her comments, it seems to be a result of the pain of trying to reconnect with her family. When Veressa refused to join her in Undercity, she swore off love. In her ramblings she talks about the pains of life. She works hard to keep emotions like hope away from the Forsaken. Part of that is not doubt the control she keeps. But it also seems that she feels that it legitimately will lead to more pain. So, she has come to believe that life is pain. And undeath can bring an escape from the emotions that cause it.

4. This is a tricky one, I know, but let's try it: when did her goal become killing all humans and raising them as undead?


Basically when she decided to not die with Arthas. Her immediate response was to build up her shield against eternity. She decided that making the Forsaken powerful would protect her. And with the Val'kry she had a way of making more Forsaken. And she needed more bodies to do it. Humanity became a huge resource to her gaining power. Even as she has embraced the Forsaken as a people more, the goal is still the same. More dead humans mean more Forsaken, means more power for her.

5. Another tricky one, but again, let's try: when did she start demanding blind obedience? Given that the Forsaken starting zone explicitly shows the newly raised having a choice as to whether to join the Forsaken or not, it clearly wasn't in the game from day one, so it must have started somewhere. Has she punished anyone for disagreeing with her before?


If not always, at least since Wrath. There was a developer interview where they were asked if she mind controlled the new Forsaken. They said no, well mostly. When first raised she could control and direct their rage. And after they were given a choice, serve or return to the grave. Even in the starter quests new player Forsaken are tasked with killing those that oppose her. While it is claimed they are broken in the head, I am not sure that is true considering the source. Then of course there is a certain Deathknight that spent years in her "care" because he did not follow 100%.

Another question might be, when have we ever seen her allow dissent from those under her?
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This video will answer any and all lore questions you have about Sylvie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7iJ57HBK2I
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06/13/2018 10:19 AMPosted by Hackbrew
This is another one that crept up very recently, specifically in BtS. It makes sense for her to expect loyalty from her people. But the idea that they must be 100% fanatically loyal is new, and doesn't make too much sense with the pre-established Lore.
Previously, Forsaken were actually free to leave if they wished. They simply had to ask Sylvanas, and she'd consider it. It may not have been a fair system, but it was in place. There are a handful of Undead that we know of who actively left the Forsaken for different pastures.


That isn't exactly true. In Vanilla several Forsaken fled to the Dalaran crater to seek asylum among the Kirin Tor and brought dire news about the going ons within the Undercity. These Forsaken where then had a hit put on them.

Instances in where Forsaken openly rebelled against Sylvanas' government were murdered. In the starting area the rotbrains were put down for defying their benefactor.

As Silverpine questing showed she started going to the extremes and using risen humans to kill their former allies in what Blizzard described as a rage stage which newly risen under duress.

This again happened in Western Plaguelands questing. Her need to control Koltira and using newly risen and forcing her will in order to win the war was paramount. This only evolved.

You are free to agree. You are not free to leave and join the Alliance or rebel as a new faction. You cannot openly dissent against the Dark Lady or hold opinions which incite others to disagree on her actions ideas or methods.

That's not some lore fanfiction that's an evolution of a character from Warcraft 3, Vanilla, Wotlk, Cata and today. Were you the same person with the same ideas 10 or 20 years ago? Did you never evolve your ideas or opinions as life demanded it?
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06/13/2018 08:40 PMPosted by Tienzan
That's not some lore fanfiction that's an evolution of a character from Warcraft 3, Vanilla, Wotlk, Cata and today. Were you the same person with the same ideas 10 or 20 years ago? Did you never evolve your ideas or opinions as life demanded it?

It may not be fanfiction, but since you left out the context of all of those situations you are simply spreading half truths which are just as bad as lies-- all because the rest of it subverts your actual argument.

That isn't exactly true. In Vanilla several Forsaken fled to the Dalaran crater to seek asylum among the Kirin Tor and brought dire news about the going ons within the Undercity. These Forsaken where then had a hit put on them.
The rest of it: Not only did those Forsaken defect to the Alliance, they also stole stuff you're assigned to get back.

Instances in where Forsaken openly rebelled against Sylvanas' government were murdered. In the starting area the rotbrains were put down for defying their benefactor.
The rest of it: treason is a crime. See also: The Defias.

As Silverpine questing showed she started going to the extremes and using risen humans to kill their former allies in what Blizzard described as a rage stage which newly risen under duress.
The rest of it: The people of Hillsbrad were coerced by the Worgen to take up the curse to avoid this fate. So what about this is exactly bad for the Forsaken?

This again happened in Western Plaguelands questing. Her need to control Koltira and using newly risen and forcing her will in order to win the war was paramount. This only evolved.
The rest of it: Koltira was conspiring with Thassarian to look the other way when his orders were to take control of Andorhal. Even though Thassarian's men inadvertently broke the ceasefire in the end Koltira still failed in his job.
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06/13/2018 08:40 PMPosted by Tienzan
06/13/2018 10:19 AMPosted by Hackbrew
This is another one that crept up very recently, specifically in BtS. It makes sense for her to expect loyalty from her people. But the idea that they must be 100% fanatically loyal is new, and doesn't make too much sense with the pre-established Lore.
Previously, Forsaken were actually free to leave if they wished. They simply had to ask Sylvanas, and she'd consider it. It may not have been a fair system, but it was in place. There are a handful of Undead that we know of who actively left the Forsaken for different pastures.


That isn't exactly true. In Vanilla several Forsaken fled to the Dalaran crater to seek asylum among the Kirin Tor and brought dire news about the going ons within the Undercity. These Forsaken where then had a hit put on them.

Instances in where Forsaken openly rebelled against Sylvanas' government were murdered. In the starting area the rotbrains were put down for defying their benefactor.

As Silverpine questing showed she started going to the extremes and using risen humans to kill their former allies in what Blizzard described as a rage stage which newly risen under duress.

This again happened in Western Plaguelands questing. Her need to control Koltira and using newly risen and forcing her will in order to win the war was paramount. This only evolved.

You are free to agree. You are not free to leave and join the Alliance or rebel as a new faction. You cannot openly dissent against the Dark Lady or hold opinions which incite others to disagree on her actions ideas or methods.

That's not some lore fanfiction that's an evolution of a character from Warcraft 3, Vanilla, Wotlk, Cata and today. Were you the same person with the same ideas 10 or 20 years ago? Did you never evolve your ideas or opinions as life demanded it?
Didn't those Forsaken that fled steal things from the Undercity as well? Maybe I'm thinking of something else.

And rebels being murdered? Openly rebelling against Sylvanas sounds like a no-no and doesn't fall within the reasonable "You can leave if you want" clause of undeath.

As for Koltira, he was purposefully keeping Andorhal at a standstill and obstructing the war effort as a whole because of an old friendship. He was sent in there to complete a mission, not fraternize with the enemy and waste resources. As for his punishment? Probably overboard, I don't know.
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More importantly, the Rotbrains were wrong-in-the-head. They woke into undeath not quite right.

The rest of what Seiryu added to the half-stories is pretty dead on.
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I would also point to the undead that went to serve in the Plaguelands (is that still canon nowadays?) He disagreed with how Sylvanas did things and chose to use his undeath to serve a different purpose.
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06/13/2018 08:57 PMPosted by Seiryu
It may not be fanfiction, but since you left out the context of all of those situations you are simply spreading half truths which are just as bad as lies-- all because the rest of it subverts your actual argument.

That isn't exactly true. In Vanilla several Forsaken fled to the Dalaran crater to seek asylum among the Kirin Tor and brought dire news about the going ons within the Undercity. These Forsaken where then had a hit put on them.
The rest of it: Not only did those Forsaken defect to the Alliance, they also stole stuff you're assigned to get back.

Instances in where Forsaken openly rebelled against Sylvanas' government were murdered. In the starting area the rotbrains were put down for defying their benefactor.
The rest of it: treason is a crime. See also: The Defias.

As Silverpine questing showed she started going to the extremes and using risen humans to kill their former allies in what Blizzard described as a rage stage which newly risen under duress.
The rest of it: The people of Hillsbrad were coerced by the Worgen to take up the curse to avoid this fate. So what about this is exactly bad for the Forsaken?

This again happened in Western Plaguelands questing. Her need to control Koltira and using newly risen and forcing her will in order to win the war was paramount. This only evolved.
The rest of it: Koltira was conspiring with Thassarian to look the other way when his orders were to take control of Andorhal. Even though Thassarian's men inadvertently broke the ceasefire in the end Koltira still failed in his job.


Ever hear the old addage - two people can look at the same facts and come up with completely different conclusions. You in your bias see it one way, and I see it another.

The fact is the Kirin Tor was out of commission and the intel they brought was about the crystals which reminded me of Saronite in Wotlk. They also wanted safety and neutrality. They also feared the darkness which was consuming their brethren.

The people of Hillsbrad weren't coerced more like given a Sophie's choice. Where no choice would be okay, but one was entered willingly and the other would be raised against their will and forced to fight against their former allies. Which would you choose? Fight the enemy murdering your people and be capable and resistant against the forces which has consumed your homeland or die and be "conscripted into the Forsaken." Remember the former choice may irreversibly transform you, but at least you will ultimately remain "human" in your heart.

I believe that in the Shadow of the Sun we saw Sylvanas evolve as a character and hold her allies, the Blood Elves, hostage. She offered help in Tranquillen and then forced them to send forces to Northrend knowing full well that the Sunwell was just relighted and the elves were barely able to survive Kael'thas upheaval.

She only got darker, more manipulative and controlling. Her losses in Northrend and her suicide twisted her even further. The fear of the abyss and her sense of the Forsaken as a bulwark against damnation is now lore. Way before Golden. She almost lost Undercity to Varimathras, saw her people die, and saw her raison d'ĂȘtre fulfilled, but her goal twisted by seeing another take the mantle of the Lich King. She then killed herself only to comeback knowing what awaits her.

I wish people took a step back and say, "Yes this is logical and very human of her." If you ever met people who have had suicidal tendencies and narcissistic disorders you'd realize Sylvanas is sick. The writers in Blizzard are creating not a villain, but an anti-hero, a tragic character that isn't a mustache twisting villain. She's a broken person. One constantly betrayed. Who's people are leaving her and she wants to keep them. You know who she reminds me of? Jaina. Two broken women with tragic pasts compelled out of anger, fear and rejection.
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Okay, so BtS!Sylvanas is also a control freak. Would you say this is new, or have we seen it before? If so, when and where?