I think it’s better to let anybody do any content they wish, and have specs that are much simpler than others with reasonable output. I don’t see why mandatory complexity makes the game better for people who like simpler rotations.
Arcane mage should be the simplest thing in the world. Spam Arcane Blast, dump stacks with Barrage, spend missiles on Clearcasting procs, occasionally use Arcane Surge, etc.
But they have to throw in all these extra buttons like Arcane Orb, Touch of the Magi, Nether Tempest, Radiant Spark, etc.
The opener for an arcane mage on the wowhead guide has 25 steps. No rotation in this entire game should have 25 steps.
What about League?
One of the most popular games out there. Most champions have 5 spells, some of them being passives. Yet the champion pool is diverse, they’re all uniquely different and some people enjoy them so much they play a character exclusively.
5-6 buttons isn’t bad just because a bad game did them
I did not say that we should get rid of them. I specifically emphasized player choice–the complexity talents would still exist, but each new button should have a companion talent which is a passive that enhances a spell which is already part of the rotation. I don’t want more buttons, I want the buttons I already have to be cooler.
i dont play lol. I mean it works for the dota genre because of the way the genre plays. its completely different from a mmorpg. your basically comparing apples to oranges here.
They already have this: take passives.
This topic is the dust of a dead horse at this point.
That’s fine and dandy until the talent tree locks 3+ branches behind one central talent which is another darn button press that can’t reasonably be avoided.
The problem with different specs having different complexities is it raises the issue of balance.
If a simple spec and a complex spec deal the same damage, very few people are going to play the complex spec, and it will basically become a dead spec.
Something you can absolutely do. 
But I disagree. Interesting mechanics and character design isn’t scoped to video game genres.
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The “central talents” are the top levels, which are the core to your gameplay. If you can’t handle 6-10 buttons, then I’d suggest finding an Xbox game or something.
If that’s the case, then why do we have so many complex specs? If the obvious player choice would be to play a simpler spec…why make everything complex?
Do players really want things to be complex, or do they only appreciate complexity because it makes them feel like they’re good at something? Some of us just want to play the game without addons, timers, flow charts, and proc whack-a-mole.
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This is actually the truth laid bare.
If you examine the people demanding hard to play classes in these threads, you’ll notice they don’t do any challenging content.
It really does just come down to ego. If I demand something to be hard, it’s clearly because I’m good at the game and like hard things.
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One example: in the mage class tree (left), there is a point where you absolutely MUST take another active button. All three branches are locked behind more buttons. Alter Time, Mirror Image, and Shifting Power. You absolutely have to take at least one of them, and even if they’re not mandatory damage talents, they’re still more buttons you can’t avoid.
Arcane Missiles is core to the spec, but you’re also forced to take Arcane Orb, which is just another short-cooldown damage button that doesn’t feel especially fun to use and just takes up another keybind because you’re nerfing yourself for not actively using it whenever you need to stack charges.
That kind of stuff is the stuff I’d like to avoid. Mid-level cooldowns feel awkward to juggle, especially without addons to keep track of them, and Arcane is a spec full of short cooldowns. I used to love Arcane, but now it just feels like it’s too much button juggling and runs in direct opposition to why the spec used to be so much fun for me.
… those are cooldowns. Not core rotational buttons. It seems pretty nonsensical to be upset about a cooldown.
Yes. Because it’s core to your gameplay. It’s the second row of your talents.
Do you even comprehend that these buttons would have been automatically given to you in your spellbook under the old talent system?
So you want a mindless three buttons to press and don’t even understand how the ones you pointed out even work. I can’t take this seriously.
Then again, none of these threads can be taken seriously, because for most classes, the amount of buttons you have now is not different from previous expansions. You were just given those abilities in your spellbook before, instead of using a talent point for them.
I have gone back through screenshots of old expansions for most of my classes and specs… and my bars look almost identical in the number of buttons. This topic is nonsensical at best.
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It speaks to the concept of button bloat, though. Mandatory buttons should not be a frequent part of the talent trees. Give us passive alternatives.
It wasn’t until recently. The fact that it is now being forced as part of the “core gameplay” is exactly the issue I have with it.
I’d be okay with that, sure. I’m not looking for a ton of button-bouncing and whack-a-mole stuff.
Depends on which “previous expansions” you’re referring to, because every class has had a ton of buttons added in since the early days. Arcane Mage is a good example. Arcane Orb didn’t exist until recently, and now you call it “core to the gameplay,” as if it’s always been there.
Bro, you used to get Arcane Orb by default as Arcane. Just don’t put it on your bar if you don’t want to cast it.
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Rest assured, I solve this problem by simply not playing my mage.
Glad to hear. Live your best life, Jarnock.
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This is just factually false.
For example lets compare Affliction Warlock now to Shadow Lands.
You had the choice of Dark Fury verse Mortal Coil in SL. In DF you can and usually take both.
In SL you’d choose Inevitable Demise verse Night Fall vs Drain Soul. In DF you can take all 3 at once.
In SL you’d choose Shadow Embrace verse Haunt vs Grim of Sac. In DF you take all 3 at once.
In SL you’d choose Sow the Seeds verse Tile Taint. In DF you take both.
This is just a handful of comparisons. I could extend this list 5x just for Affliction Warlock.
And we’re also not factoring in that the “choice” element has been changed in a way that favors picking up more actives.
For example in SL you’d often go Write of Agony of Siphon Life. In DF that isn’t even a decision you have to make, Write of Agony has no impact in picking up Siphon Life.
And yet it’s not. Because I compared my screenshots from previous expansions to now for the specs I play and their button numbers didn’t change. Destro, Balance, Restos both, Ele, Fury, etc… all almost exactly the same layouts on their bars with the same amount for their rotations.
So are you implying that I am lying or completely making up the examples I just provided?
I am literally staring at the Shadowlands talent tree on monitor 1 and the Dragonflight tree on monitor 2.
This isn’t a matter of opinions or my interpretation. This is simply how it is.