Should SV go back to range?

If the hat fits… isn’t that what they say?

Thats good.

To counter the use of false information to prove a point, to point out that one logic/view isn’t the only one there is. Because person A think it doesnt fit, doesn’t mean that it doesnt. Because the crusade keeps going on and on with the same bull****.


You may need to revisit the skill list there.


Wrong, it was still there in legion. That was a change that came in BFA.

Want to use the term deleted? Fine, old spriest, shaman, etc got their spec deleted as well.

It says a lot about your character (not that I’m surprised) that you would try to spin this into anything short of him saying he wanted melee removed. You know, what you spent several days shouting at anyone who brought it up… and called anyone who said it that they were liars.

The hat of what? Saying that they would like ranged SV back?

What false information? You’ve expressed that you don’t like the data, but that doesn’t make it ‘false information’.

What is the alternative logic/view that is here then? The view that ranged SV shouldn’t be brought back as a fourth spec? That’s literally just contrarianism.

Show us then. Show us abilities that were unique to ranged Survival that were kept completely in tact when it was deleted and replaced with melee SV.

Again with the false equivalencies. Which shaman spec has zero abilities from its former iteration? Show me where spriests lost every single shadow priest ability in the process of being changed to being a melee dps spec.

Show me where I called you a liar for claiming that. I’ve been asking you to link me his comment where he said it, and you still haven’t done so. Now you insist that he said something here that he did not say. If he wants to affirm your claim that by saying this he actually meant that melee SV should be deleted, then he can do that. But until then I shall take him at his word, not your word.

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Again, it says a lot about you to try and claim that he isn’t saying melee should be removed. You’d be the only person on these forums who could read the following and think it means anything other than remove said spec…

You’ve proven you’re nothing more than a biased liar. I’ll enjoy your absence when SL launches and SV is still squarely melee.

Alright @Watermist , I’ll just ignore the Spinnerdh trolling. Since he’s clearly not reading what anyone says.


Good find Darkeforge, I know he hated it but didnt see the line on forums. Probably on discord.

Does he say “Melee SV should be removed”? No, he doesn’t. Until I’ve seen him say that I don’t really have a reason to think that he wants that. If you wanna get him to say it why not just ask him to say it? Why are you so hung up about this anyway? Do you really have no better arguments to make?

Also, can you quote me where I called you a liar for claiming he said that? I don’t recall ever saying that; only asking you for the source.

You accuse me of not reading what anyone says, when your the same guy who said:

Man, talk about projection.

How about this. Provide your reasoning for why you don’t want SV brought back as a fourth spec. Then we can discuss it. So far the only posts I see from you guys is hating on other people for wanting it brought back, but I’ve yet to hear your reasoning as to why you don’t think it should be brought back.

So, can you justify this position of yours? I’ll wait to hear your response.

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To be frank, I think I suspect I get where Azagorod is coming from. I used to debate the nuances of the Hunter class and specs with my Battle.net friends and my guild mates — and sometimes I find myself getting overwhelmed by having multiple people bombarding me with their arguments at the same time.

Do I want to see more of his arguments? Absolutely. But I’ve been watching him arguing with five people at the same time. I suspect he just needs a break before he can answer our questions.

I know that I would’ve felt totally in over my head if I was in his shoes. :woman_shrugging:t3:

And this really is a debate worth having. Maybe we should just create a thread specifically for this, for people to give their best arguments against SV being turned into a ranged spec.

Hopefully that’d help contain all the arguments to one place. :wink:

Let’s clarify what I think about SV:

I’ve always posted on the assumption that a 4th spec is as unlikely as it gets, mainly due to the prospect of having a pure DPS class with 4 specs, but if they could do it while ensuring each spec has a unique identity and they can actually give each spec the time and attention they need then it could be the ideal choice.

The problems with this though is that so far they’ve demonstrated that they can’t do much of either of those things. Survival still doesn’t have much of an identity but rather 2 or 3 different smaller identities competing for prominence, one of which is flatly just BM’s identity copy-pasted. In both the Legion and BFA testing phases Survival got the lion’s share of developer attention and the other two specs suffered for it. While BM had issues like Spitting Cobra not working at >20 yards (still an issue on Shadowlands alpha, by the way) and MM was blatantly a non-functional spec, SV was getting multiple talent revisions and tuning passes, including adding an entirely new talent, Arctic Bola, only to remove it and replace it with another entirely new talent, Wildfire Infusion.

This is why I’ve said the ideal thing to do is to build a melee Hunter option into BM and make Survival focus on its old ranged identity. BM is the spec that always focused the least on the ranged weapon and the melee Hunter identity has always centred around pets; most prominently with Rexxar himself. Many of the people who like SV like it for reasons other than being melee which can be perfectly well achieved with ranged Survival (many of them were) and this would provide an option for those who specifically want the fantasy of being a melee Hunter. It would allow them to focus on delivering a coherent melee Hunter without ill-fitting utilitarian aspects (Serpent Sting and Wildfire Bomb) which, while cool abilities, never fit a melee pet-focused Hunter to begin with. Most importantly, it wouldn’t be forcing melee on anyone who doesn’t want to play melee.

It should be something chosen via talents and not an in-combat toggle like many suggest because if it were something so non-committal you would either be forcing melee-seeking players to be ranged all the time or vice versa. All it would need to do is replace our attacks that use a ranged weapon with melee equivalents.

  • Kill Command can remain the same (or become Legion’s Flanking Strike), as could Bestial Wrath, Aspect of the Wild, and the Frenzy mechanic.
  • Barbed Shot could become Lacerate.
  • Cobra Shot could become Raptor Strike.
  • Multi-Shot could become Carve.
  • Barrage could become Butchery.
  • Counter Shot could become Muzzle.

There are problems with this. I don’t know how Mongoose Bite could fit in here as it exists today; perhaps as a talented replacement for Chimera Shot given I also don’t know what that would be replaced with. There’s also the matter of Aspect of the Eagle. It’s a hell of a lot of functionality packed into a single talent, but so was Gladiator back in WoD. There’s still the matter of Binding Shot, Kill Shot, and Tranquilising Shot; I guess the sidearm crossbow will now be forever ingrained into any melee Hunter they make. They would also have to tune it so it would be worth picking for people who like melee but not so worth it that all the people playing the spec who want a ranged spec don’t feel pressured to go melee.

The specific melee playstyle of Survival right now wouldn’t exist, that’s true. But I think a lot of the appealing aspects can still be represented in ranged Survival. Many of Survival’s most prominent and unique aspects, such as Wildfire Bomb and Serpent Sting and all the talents that interact with them, would fit perfectly well with a ranged Survival. I think most Survival players would still be able to find something for them in the class. It’s not perfect, but hey: it’s a hell of a lot more outreach they offered to us ranged Survival players when they got rid of the spec in the first place.

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BM is less focused on the ranged weapon because thats its spec ! It focus on the pet mostly… thats BM.

MM mostly focus on its ranged weapon, because thats what it is.

Surv is more versatile and will touch everything. A jack of all trade.


I still don’t, probably never will, understand why you even believe SV is a BM… just because of one skill called Kill Command ? -shrug- never will know.

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No they aren’t. They use explosives, poisons, traps, etc… If they were a jack of all trades they would have had just as much emphasis on the pet and on physical ranged attacks as they did magical damage based DoTs like explosive shot, black arrow and serpent sting.

Because its melee attacks were named after beasts. Because of flanking strike attacking alongside the beast. The Mastery is Spirit Bond which has always been a BM talent and affects hunter and pet. Coordinated assault is literally just bestial wrath which focuses, again, on the hunter and pet attacking as one.

If the melee SV fantasy isn’t currently a melee beast master then what is it?

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“Doing everything” is not a spec identity. By not primarily using a ranged weapon it is in fact less versatile.

SV in its entirety is not just a different BM because it has things like Wildfire Bomb and Serpent Sting. However, that’s just part of SV’s toolkit. Since they can’t decide on SV’s central identity, it also has part of its toolkit dedicated to pets and that part is ripped off BM. I also get plenty of SV Hunters telling me that SV’s fantasy is a melee ranger with a loyal beast companion and even going as far as saying it is better at pet interaction than BM is… which is, of course, nonsense given SV’s pet interaction is effectively a subset of BM’s pet interaction.

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What ? Versatile doesnt mean use a range weapon mainly… its being able to do all sort of things. Not primarily focusing on the range weapon is in fact versatile.

SV central identity is a modernized primal hunter. A DnD Ranger if you want. A versatile non specialized hunter. You use everything, every ways to hunt a target down. Weaken it at range, lay traps to slow him, finish melee, so many examples.

You dont seem to know the different between working along side your pet and being a beast master.

In many RPG the Beast Master is just there to buff the pet / support it. It makes the beast do all the hard work. By force, by training it or w.e. If the beast dies, he’s completely weak.

Survival “works with” his companion. He does as much if not more than his beast, they have synergy together. He can still do something if the companion is taken down.

Survival cannot be at full effectiveness at range, the other Hunter specs can. Therefore it is less versatile.

Everything you said there is true for the other Hunter specs except finishing in melee; something the other Hunter specs don’t have to do because they can finish off the target at range.

It’s not that there is no difference; it’s that there is so minimal a difference they are effectively not distinct concepts. I can easily call BM a spec that works with the pet because you make the target bleed with Barbed Shot which sends the pet into a Frenzy and gets you both closer to Bestial Wrath.

Even if they were distinct concepts that distinction is not achieved by SV because its pet aspects are lifted from BM.

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I agree BM could easily be melee. However that melee would be different than the literal melee focused hunter I imagine. From far enough away they would seem similar though.

Just imagine a BM standing in melee range doing their rotation so I don’t have to make up melee ability names.

Barbed Shot -> Ramping up pet damage and resources, fueling your harder hitting abilities
Kill Command -> Resource spender, main hard hitting ability, on CD
Cobra Shot -> Filler, to prevent capping resources
Bestial Wrath -> Basic damage increased phase

Now here’s mine from my rework.

Lacerate -> Most efficient resource generated per button press, fuels your hard hitter
Mongoose Bite -> Only resource costing ability, using it more ramps damage
Raptor Strike and Flanking Strike -> Various ways to fill and generate resources
Fury of the Eagle -> Rewards ramping, big damage phase

So in essence, not dissimilar, but in practice it would feel much different. Its not just the different theme, its that in mine, you are the one doing the damage. You feel it. I do think being melee is actually an asset when designing ways to ramp though, so maybe BM could benefit from that.

I also meant to say, I don’t think you can build the spec properly while also just having a ranged toggle talent. I also don’t think stance dancing would be fun, spending half you’re time in melee and half in ranged. I think moving in and out as needed, a risk reward for trying to regen focus is the best way to go. But starting from melee, not range.

You need to check what it is to be versatile… to be a jack of all trade.

" Jack of all trades, Master of non "

Thats the full saying. SV is doing that well.


Thats good for them ? Thats their spec, SV is SV… Old hunters in the dark ages would finish the beast with spears.


Gotta go deeper then.

Frenzy… Beastial wrath… would normally automatically come from the beast. But for game purpose they were made as skills otherwise being a BM, you’d just sit back and shoot arrow to make you target bleed while screaming at the pet to kill it.

Explore other RPGs? You’d understand this more.


There are things which comes as Game mechanics and other as class fantasy, they are being merge to make a “game”. Some might look similar due to game mechanics, but they are quite different in the theme sense.


Sheepfacker here is only thinking the game mechanic side of things. Thus why he suggest that rework.

Why would you weaken it at a range and then run in for the final blow? Why not deliver the final blow at a range? BM and MM can do it. So if a Hunter can do that in BM and MM, why do they suddenly lose the ability to do that in SV?

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Being versatile doesn’t require being nor does it mean a jack of all trades. Being versatile means being good at or capable of more than one thing, not being capable of everything.

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There are things which comes as Game mechanics and other as class fantasy, they are being merge to make a “game”. Some might look similar due to game mechanics, but they are quite different in the theme sense.

Sheepfacker here is only thinking the game mechanic side of things. Thus why he suggest that rework.

I was actually arguing the opposite, that theme and feel are important. I went to great lengths to make sure things felt good thematically on top of mechanically. It is important to have well functioning mechanics as the foundation of any spec though.

No I read, it, I’m just pointing out how you failed at the definition.