Maybe horde side. Paladins aoe threat in dungeons is pretty good. We ran strat live and let a hunter pet “cat” tank it the other day. So take what you will from that.
Come back when you’ve got 1200+ dps warriors, no one cares about 400 dps mages lol.
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Shamans have shields, their dps gear and tank gear is essentially one and the same. Dps use a 2h, tank 1h shield.
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…and?
The output and potential of a dedicated “Tank” Shaman barely rises to “can survive” in the easiest tier of raiding content (MC/Ony) and completely falls short in the current tier and all tiers that follow. Couple that with the fact that a Shaman’s threat output is pitiful in a full EH setup and the only way to even start to approach what a Druid can do, let alone a Fury/Prot Warrior, is to drop yourself down so weakly that even weaker bosses like those in Molten Core pose a threat and you have a complete package of terrible for anything other than novelty on greatly undertuned content with greatly overgeared support.
Shaman simply lack… everything… to make competent Tanks.
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Hey, Noori!
the reality is that there a lot of shaman out there tanking raids, including BWL. I’ve been generating enough threat on Broodlord to be in the mix due to the knock back since week 1 of BWL, and I’ve been withstanding the mortal strikes since week 1 as well. Sometimes I’ll get taken down pretty quick, but it’s never by just 1 or 2 abilities in the same batch. A couple weeks ago, mortal strike didn’t even hit me for 4k damage. Shaman are totally capable of tanking all content currently released in classic, just takes a more time to prep as you progress through content.
not to mention, I regularly parse in the 50% to 75% damage bracket for enhance shaman, all while using a 1h+shield. simply put, it is a totally viable spec to roll. You can tank any fight with the right gear, and if your guild isn’t comfortable with you tanking a particular fight you still have fairly competitive and at the bare minimum not entirely useless dps.
You should stop lying to people, no top guild is going to take a shaman “tank”. It’s not a viable playstyle.
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the vast majority of players do not play in a ‘top guild’, nor did i ever say that a ‘top guild’ would employ one. even the most casual guilds clear BWL in one night. Mine does it with me tanking/off tanking bosses. it’s not even difficult. the idea that a shaman can’t tank in a raid is categorically false, we do it all the time.
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You’ve been getting gibbed. Any time you don’t get gibbed is because the dice rolled in your favor. Having only 7.5k total Health is… well… entirely terrible and why you die. Granted, your Warriors are also dying, but because they’re getting crap-all for Healing going an MS plus two melee hits after. You only live when the boss swings his MS on the lower range of his skill.
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6Xq4hv79RKMVfyNn#fight=22&type=deaths&death=2
You got destroyed by an MS-melee combo, which is very common on Broodlord, and the melee even critically hit you, the thing I specifically pointed out was part of your (and Shaman generally) weakness to attempt to Tank. Oh and the MS? 13,556 raw isn’t even close to his top-end, which is 16,498. Had Broodlord simply hit with his top-end and no melee, you’d have had barely 600 health to spare.
This is just a flagrant lie and you know it. You aren’t part of the Drake rotation because you can’t Taunt, nor can you and your Warriors manage threat appropriately, on top of the fact that the Drakes are more dangerous than Broodlord with their Thrash mechanic, and you can’t survive it anyway. A triple Thrash plus any other baseline Drake skill does more damage than Broodlord’s combo, and it happens without timers or warnings, and can happen back-to-back-to-back.
Which isn’t high, and is indicative of how miserably BAD Enhancement Shaman is for PvE, and how poorly it scales. So much of Shaman damage is from baseline spells, not coefficients, and Shaman DPS mechanics are just… too hodgepodge and poorly designed in Vanilla to be worth a damn.
Except for the fact that you can’t, and you don’t. Going splat on Broodlord with less total health than I have when I don’t use a flask and I’m in my DPS gear is frankly sad. You can’t stand up to any of the Drakes, your threat on Vael doesn’t scale with the buff so you can’t actually hold him without making everyone sit on their haunches, and Chrommagus’ soft-enrage will rip you a new one. Even if you perfectly timed Tremor Totems for Nef, you have a major risk of being run around while being in flimsy Armor and Nef’s Shadowflame+Auto combo can still one-shot you.
You can pick up Razorgore. That’s it.
you’re incorrect about everything you just said, except maybe the raw numbers on broodlord ms and Vael. it’s 100% a waste of my time to engage you. I’m looking to promote shaman tanking, not reread the same regurgitation of false assertions. You are incorrect, plain and simple. There are dozens of shaman tanking raids, including BWL. Fully buffed I’m over 9k hp, you probably had to go through all my logs to find the one where I have the lowest health. You cherry pick data to fit your false narrative, I use the data I have from dozens of other shaman tanks to support my narrative. You, are total troll, and a complete waste of time.
To the people who are actually invested in the tank community and want to speak productively about shaman tanking, hit me up in game or get in on the shaman tank discord. We’re prepping for next phase already. Cheers
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Except for the fact that I linked the log where you got specifically killed after you said you’ve never died to a one-shot?
Because your own logs call you out for being a liar.
You’re promoting a novelty that actively diminishes your raid. You’re a drain on healing, unreliable in holding threat, unreliable in surviving guaranteed spike damage, and scale horribly moving into the future.
Funny… because you die from full health from less than ~7.5k damage… curious how you pull another 1.7k health out of your rear. Oh wait! You can’t actually hit 9k Health without a Dire Maul buff and Naxx levels of Stamina!
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/6Xq4hv79RKMVfyNn#fight=22&type=deaths&source=36 - 7.5k Health
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/N8f4yLRTDqgGcZmp#fight=12&type=deaths&source=11 - 7.1k Health
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/DjrdPLVc1W3mG4vM#fight=20&type=resources&source=46&view=events - 4.7k Health
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/QHP1trAfqyVMXcZa#fight=10&type=resources&source=48&view=events - 6.2k Health
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/LY3h1GJB8FPrxMtm#fight=13&type=resources&source=31&view=events - 7.5k Health
https://classic.warcraftlogs.com/reports/47AbLTYXnCckVR6f#fight=12&type=resources&source=3&view=events - 8.1k Health <— DM buffs
Lying is why I respond every time, because that’s all you and the others are capable of doing while misleading everyone. This is all of your Broodlord parses. You only ever broke over 8k with a one-time only, can’t die, world buff. That’s really bad.
Mad because not-a-real-Tank (and bad).
The Shaman discord is just Caperfin’s personal blog, complete with all the same crackpot attempts at theorycrafting. His spreadsheet is inaccurate and guessed at and relies entirely on p-server underlying values.
You actively harm people by lying to them about their chances of success while Tanking on a Shaman.
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What’s your spec I’m gonna try tanking 21/30/0 on my shaman. I tanked in vanilla a few times and I was pretty clueless, 15 years later shaman will be easier to tank with than pala. No one flames paladins for tanking and they are definitely well below warr and druid tanks. I don’t think a shaman is better than a warr or druid tank, but if a paladin is a “viable” third faction option, so is a shaman.
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This isn’t even remotely an equal comparison. Paladins are significantly sturdier by virtue of wearing plate and having access to Defense gear. Additionally, around AQ40, Paladins scale up enough to become passively unhittable with Holy Shield active, meaning they suddenly become incapable of being critically hit or take a crushing blow. Finally, Plate just has more Stamina than other pieces.
As far as Threat is concerned, if the Paladin is going a more traditional route, they’re fine for average/below-average DPS guilds. However, if a Paladin needs to hold off a bunch of top tier Rogues/Warriors, they can spam GBoK on the most populous class in raid and hold just fine. Their worst drawback is that they just don’t deal adequate DPS while Tanking, making them both squishier and weaker compared to Druids and Warriors.
Despite this, Paladins are better than Shaman on all fronts (EH, TTL, DPS, TPS).
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Guys. 15 year old content. If a shaman wants to tank let them. There is 544,000 warriors and only a handful of them actually want to tank. If shaman, druids want to tank let them.
Stop being elitists in a 15 year old sandbox we all love.
Edit: goes for paladin on the alliance side if they want to tank or ret away, who cares. Let them. you might actually have fun with them instead of getting all worked up.
Nah, they can put on their dress and heal like they’re suppose to.
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No. You shouldn’t put any class into a role that will actively undermine their own goals as well as the goals of the rest of the raid. Shaman are a liability. This isn’t being “elitist”, this is just reality.
Its fun to do unorthodox things sometimes. Why adamantly adhere just to the meta? Wow classic is more than just meta.
Not every guild is cutting edge-min/max-meta only. Nothing wrong with such guilds, but its fair to assume most guilds are just happy to clear what ever raid they can field a full team in.
Therefore, if a shaman/paladin wants to off tank or something who cares let them. Chances are they are going to come to the raid with buffs, pots and such to assist themselves in that role, just like any other warrior tank would, and does.
Because “unorthodox” in this case is “oops, our Tank died and now the untauntable boss is one-shotting all our DPS as quickly as the person supposed to hold him and survive”
Unorthodox is bringing Smite Priests and ensuring they’re all in a Ret Paladin group for Sanctity Aura. The DPS will be slower, but enrage timers are explicitly long in Vanilla so it won’t be fatal to your raid.
Shaman Tanks aren’t unorthodox. They’re strictly an unavoidable liability.
Cutting edge min/max guilds wouldn’t be able prop up a Shaman Tank, which means that the average and below-average guilds will actively fail trying to do so. This isn’t about seeking a top 99% parse. This is about netting your guild success without adding the frustration of terrible TPS and worse survivability. Broodlord isn’t even the nastiest encounter in BWL, and Shaman explode when Tanking him, unavoidably so, and that’s including things like Dire Maul Tribute buffs and absolute min/max consumable use like Flask of the Titans and constant Stoneshield Potions.
This is asinine. You can’t combine “guilds that just wanna be happy to clear with a team” and assume that some goober Shaman is going to play like a 99% player and just happen to also have all the support necessary to prop up the playstyle.
Tanking/Healing are binary things in this game (with DPS becoming one much much later). You are either able to survive (viable Tank), or not (non viable Tank). You are either able to heal the incoming damage (viable Healing), or not (non viable Tank or non viable Healer).
Shaman are not viable Tanks. That is all.
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Not to discount everything else you said, but we will have to agree to disagree Fasc.