You don’t. He’s clearly unimpressed with how Thrall is being depicted relative to how he was portrayed previously. He even mentions the council…
He doesn’t mention anything about wanting to be proud about genocide.
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Are you somehow of the opinion that parity is equal to fairness?
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The problem with this particular line of thinking is what this “atonement” is.
Because looking at it from a completely objective standpoint, the “Honor Horde” who took eventually turned on Sylvanas for what she did to the Horde (Had them instigate a war of extinction rather than the war of survival they were told it was. Had them compromise their values, ect) and should you play a Horde character in Shadowlands, even go the extra mile to help rescue night elf souls from the Maw by picking the right Covenant. Objectively speaking, they’ve done all they reasonably could do to atone.
Now what this board means by atonement has ranged from the outright slaughter of every Horde warrior involved in the war to burning of their cities in vengeance, with the atonement just being to sit there and say “We deserve this”.
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Or perhaps I should put it this way. Why do you talk about the Alliance not being held accountable, when in the example you provided the retribution was not just proportionate, but disproportinate, since not just their leader died, but every dwarf in bael modan. In comparisson, the Horde have not been held accountable for Teldrassil in any way whatsoever.
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No. But why does she talk about the Alliance not being held accountable, when in the example she gave they were more than held accountable.
You say this like the Bael modan dwarves weren’t supported and enabled by Jaina/Theramore lol.
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I mean, it’s by design right?
They will never write towards actual lasting peace. Every conflict will end with someone on one side wanting for more.
The Horde is probably already locking up and searching for Sylvanas loyalists, but one side of the alliance will always see as not enough.
The only true lasting peace would be the end of both factions and each nation fighting for their own interests. And that isn’t happening
And the Horde millitary wasn’t involved after Teldrassil? They gladly supported the war, all the way until Sylvanas flew off. Doesn’t that make them just as guilty as those dwarves?
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He never intended to do anything. Thrall literally tells Jaina "I will condemn the breaking of the Horde’s word…but nothing more.
He never found them because he never tried. Had he actually bothered to investigate things would be so much different now.
It was not about pride? Let Thrall’s own words speak for him.
“It was. And turning over suspected criminals to the Alliance justice would be a horror that my people would never recover from. It would SHAME them, and I will never do that.”
The fact is turning over Horde Criminals would have affected Horde pride and Thrall valued it more than Justice. He might have had a decent reason(namely people might try and overthrow him) but at the end of the day he still had to deal with an insurrection AND still had to turn over Horde criminals to the Alliance!
Azeroth would have been a better had he given up his pride/Horde pride and just promised to turn over criminals who SKINNED PEOPLE ALIVE.
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I am pointing out an inconsistency in the arguement that all the Horde must pay for what happened at Teldrassil because it was a genocide. I have no issue with how the thing with the Dwarves was resolved. I don’t think all Dwarves should die for it. I am, mostly tongue in check, pointing out a double standard.
Tell that to all the Horde soldiers slaughtered by Tyrande in Darkshore when she first Night Warriored up. Sure, her fight against Nathanos was rather a let down but she certainly went on a bloodbath prior to that. The fact that the Horde lost that Warfront would suggest it generally didn’t end well for most of the soldiers there either. I don’t imagine she was in the mood to take prisoners.
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He didn’t actually need to do that either.
He could have refused to hand over the criminals to the Alliance, but vowed to punish them all the same. That way he wouldn’t have been curtailing to the Alliance BUT made it clear that skinning folks alive was a no-no.
But since Thrall apparently wasn’t really committed to doing even that because it would have made him look weak well…we got Garrosh.
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This too. He wanted to look strong but meta wise he looked like a weak fool that couldnt be bothered to do the hard things.
By creating a double standard? Why do you think that all the dwarves who were in bael modan deserved to die, but all the Horde that were at Teldrassil doesn’t? An arbitrary measure that only accounts for them being on Darkshore but misinformed, when the reality is they had every opportunity to stop fighting in the war following this event. Them continuing to fight is why they are guilty, and why you aren’t pointing out a double standard, but creating one.
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Doesn’t mean they wouldn’t be punished.
There is nothing to indicate that. Plus, since it was Twilight Hammer it is likely he wouldn’t have found them since they were never suspected by either side.
So your saying that the Alliance law applies to all Horde citizens in Horde land? So much for any respect for sovereignty. It has been a while since I read it but I am pretty sure your ignoring Thrall pretty much says to Jaina that she would say no to him if he demanded the same thing from her.
No it wouldn’t because A) it would have angered the orcs who were starving in the Barrens at the time that he was basically saying the Alliance laws superseded the Horde’s laws and apparently taking the NE’s side on the tensions on the border, thus undermining his authority, and B) he would have never found them to turn over anyway and thus the Alliance would just see him as a lair and oath-breaker. Plus if he had stuck around to try deal with it he wouldn’t have been where he needed to be to deal with the elemental disaster that followed. So Azeroth might have been a complete wreck.
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I don’t understand why you are so fixated on this.
Ok let me make this simple:
Teldrassil related arguement:
- For what was done at Teldrassil ALL the HORDE should suffer the punishment.
Same people about Bael Modan:
-
Crickets
or in a couple of cases - Well the tauren had it coming since they tried to stop the Dwarves from using explosives.
See the double standard? People who want to blame every member of the Horde of Teldrassil don’t feel that what the Dwarves at Bael Modan did deserves the Alliance as a whole should pay for it.
I am not advocating that anything be done. I am just pointing out, and in passing too, that in one case of genocide the entire Horde is treated as unforgivable while in the other not even the Bronzebeard clan are considered culpable.
I don’t think I can make it any clearer than that.
And no, the Horde didn’t really have the option to stop fighting. Do you seriously believe they expected the Alliance to forgive them after that? The Alliance is rarely gentle and Genn even less so and Andiun had him whispering in his ear. Genn, the guy who voted for the entire orc population to be put to the sword after the second war. You really think the people of the Horde believed stopping fighting was an option? There was really nothing to suggest the Alliance would show mercy and plenty of examples in the past to suggest it wouldn’t.
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I’m not saying all the Horde. Only the millitary personal present at Darkshore during the burning, and also contiued to support Sylvanas after this incident. Which I think is fair if you’d condemn every dwarf in bael modan to death.
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He tells you he is not doing anything. Not even investigating.
He never tried to investigate. The lack of any effort on his part is his biggest sin. Hell Hamuul had actually suspected something was off especially when the Twilight cultist didnt seem to know Garrosh was warchief. An actual dedicated effort might have exposed them(hell, Anduin exposed a Twilight hammer plot all on his own, is the Horde so inept that even a child can beat them at investigation?)
And yet here we are, Thrall giving a member of the Horde(formerly) to the Alliance to face justice. It did not mean the Horde is giving up sovereignity. It is Thrall realizing that maybe there are some actions that demand justice that crosses the factional divide.
Also, the Alliance has always prided itself on law and order and had the opposite happened and someone skinned Horde soldiers alive I actually think it might have been willing to turn them over to the Horde. Hell we have Jaina letting her father die for peace! What more with regards to people who would commit such barberic acts!
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That’s adorable.
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Just as adorable as the Horde’s Lok’tar Ogar while running screaming during the Broken Shore.
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“Eventually” being a key word here. Even baine, who was the first to act, took until 8.1.5 to act against Sylvanas. It took until 8.2 for a resistance to form, and the majority of the Horde military never joined said resistance. They supported Sylvanas until she flew away in 8.2.5, at which point they desperately tried, and failed, to distance themselves from her. The Horde has an entity has done absolutely nothing to atone for anything they have done.
I said it before and i’ll say it again. Talk is cheap. It will take much more than killing Sylvanas and letting a few souls rest in peace to atone.
Or perhaps they don’t atone. Which is fine, as long as horde players don’t whine when people like me want to get retribution through other means, such as war, and act like the Alliance isn’t justified. That is all.
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