I honestly think there is quite a bit of room to make BM a melee spec., i think that would fit an awesome fantasy of the Hunter going INTO physical combat with his pet by his side and then having them feed off each other’s attacks. I think that offers alot of flavor.
That goes more into splitting the class though, for me i think BM/Melee survival would make a separate great class, while they could still keep BM/MM ranged physical as it’s own thing.
These are some interesting ideas and honestly i have always felt (and this is part of why i don’t play it) that there is nothing that Survival does that i don’t/can’t do better on my Paladins/Warriors. I think Survival could be so much more if it was split out if they still need it has to be a melee spec. Unfortunately though the game is PACKED with melee specs and so i think in many ways Suvival is like the redheaded step child in many ways. I also think that Survival will get even more lost as the game moves forward, if they ever introduce something like Blademaster like i hope they will (probably another melee spec) into the game then that would even be more melee options for people to play.
Your idea of it being a healer is interesting and if they went that route then keeping them within the Hunter class would make sense and give other hunters an additional role to play, so that is a very interesting idea.
At the end of the day i was hoping they would have introduced the Tinkerer class to the game because we have a dearth of ranged physical class/spec options and i think the tinkerer could be a great option to add to the game in that way.
Unfortunately as it stands now i see a 3rd expansion in a row where Hunters are in relatively bad shape. Sure you can pad meters in PvE content (and do great deeps)…but that is all you will be able to play. I wish they would focus more on BM/MM to make them work/function better but they are clearly having issues making that happen, whether it is an unwillingness or being unable too i am not sure, but either way it shows as the class has been relegated to low tier status and nothing they have done that i can see will change that anytime soon as long as they stick to their current limited design philosophy. It is a shame to see the most played and enjoyed class die out so badly…but it is what it is.
I would prefer they DIDN’T stand still, that is the point. I am ok with a long cast, but let me move while doing it. It used to be this way and for some reason they changed it.
Not sure where you got this from. No one in the game is a sniper, the game isn’t built for any type of gameplay for it.
I mean if you were talking about the real world yes. But in the game, it is double punishment for a kiting class to have to not only hard cast but to turret to do it.
From my point of view it is a gameplay thing and honestly if you can suspend beleif for people to shoot fire and ice from their hands how hard is it to believe people can fire arrows on the move, hell the Japanese STILL practice mounted archery.
Yea i can’t disagree with this. But mostly in PvP there is so much CC in the game it is almost impossible to get a chance to actually turret long enough to get the shots off you need to and actually be effective…hence why Hunters are largely free kills and absent from high rated PvP.
It was a toggle ability of choosing between your auto attacks being augmented by certain effects.
Frozen Ammo - dealt some extra frost damage and slowed the target.
Poisoned Ammo - your auto attacks applied a DoT on the target, dealing increasing Nature damage over time.
Incendiary Ammo - your auto attacks exploded on impact, dealing a bit of fire damage to enemies near your primary target.
I recall the auto attacks gaining some minor change to their animation beyond the regular auto shot animation, although barely noticeable. But I’m not entirely sure on that part.
I agree.
The Hunter class right now is the one class to struggle with the issue of being one that relies on weapons for all it’s specs, but the weapon changes heavily depending on what spec.
Other classes that have both melee-based specs as well as ranged ones, they focus on either melee-combat mixed with various spells(magic) or shapeshifting or, ranged specs focusing only on spells(and/or shapeshifting).
Hunters rely solely on the use of weapons, thus making it very difficult to implement/maintain a coherent theme on a class-wide basis. The only one that works is essentially the increased focus on the use of pets.
They have sort of worked around this by focusing on certain utility. But even that is in many ways based on either ranged/melee-abilities(Tranq shot).
…yeah, it’s a problem.
No spec should’ve been turned into a melee spec.
Either they should’ve added a talent to BM to allow for a switch between the baseline ranged toolkit and the melee toolkit. Or they should’ve added in a 4th spec from the start.
I do think it highlights a greater issue at hand though. The team devoted to class development just isn’t as good as the original. It is less meaningful which class you choose, when the development time seems to be primarily focused on a game system they can scrap in 2 years for another one.
I don’t know if you play destiny, but there is a very similar overtone creeping into wow. That game would be a nightmare to balance over 9 classes. There are currently 3, with 3 sub classes. That game is more focused on game systems, like gun play, mob mechanics, and environments. It almost seems like wow is trying to focus on exciting game play systems like that, and then fitting “enjoyable” classes into their grand ideas.
I would say it’s more about how they “had an idea” and wanted to follow through on it. That idea being the overhaul of Survival, changing it from a ranged weapon-based spec focusing on augmented shots(enhanced ammunition) and better traps in the style of DoT’s, changing it to a pet-focused melee spec with a theme surrounding the idea of coordinated attacks performed by you together with your pet.
That theme in itself, it’s fine ofc. Although as mentioned by Ion himself, and voiced by a lot of players(not just on this forum), that theme isn’t the reason why they chose this class to begin with.
Continuing on that, the fact that not everyone likes a particular playstyle/spec/theme, is not wrong either.
The part that makes it(the overhaul)…wrong…is how that added niche/focus took away a big part of the class’ core identity and options for how we want to focus on it(RSV).
They can work on BM or MM or current SV all they want, neither of their current themes are focusing on the same fantasy as the old SV did and they won’t do either unless they receive major reworks. Again, not something I’m opting for to be done.
But that does not take away the fact that there’s now a void within the class. And the game as a whole. 1 spec in the entire game that focuses on the use of an actual ranged weapon(specifically, how it’s being used) is not enough.
Well, first of all, I don’t see how a spell that has a 25% chance to reset on use and splits damage between the hunter and the pet is a “discount” Kill Command.
Beast Mastery’s theme is not “a close tie to their pet.” BM’s theme is “a mastery of beasts.” They may and should have a close bond with one pet, but their deal overall is commanding a number of beasts and companions.
Survival’s theme, at melee or range, is more along the lines of hunter’s original class theme: A sort of jack-of-all-trades who combines a bag of tricks for every advantage in tracking and disabling their prey.
One of the tricks in Survival’s bag is their pet. Depending on how a player talents, they may be slightly more reliant on their pet than Survival players who talent differently. But they are never entirely reliant on their pet - Survival cannot escape the need to employ their other tricks. And at the same time, Survival isn’t commanding a small army of beasts like BM is.
The one thing kind of pushing the envelope here is Survival’s Mastery, but it could be renamed and it would be fixed. It wouldn’t even need a mechanical change. It would still represent the Survival Hunter’s focus on his bag of tricks - including the pet.
By my count, you’ve been at this for four years. If I’m recalling correctly, I’ve seen your argument evolve from “there shouldn’t be a hunter melee spec at all” to an argument focused on spec identity and mechanical issues.
I gotta say, I disagree with two of those three statements. I think hunter has and has always had room for a melee spec. I do think it would be cooler if it were BM (I actually think Blizzard had been leaning into that as they started design for Legion, but backed off it for some reason). But either way, a melee hunter is fine.
I clearly disagree with your concerns about Survival infringing in BM’s spec identity. There was slightly more infringement during Legion (likely relics of an initial intention to make BM melee), but those have smoothed out considerably. Again, it’s a matter of BM being leading a pile of beasts versus Survival employing a bag of tricks that includes a beast - even with Survival’s current use of Kill Command.
Mechanically, Survival could use some smoothing out. I don’t think it has to be all that dramatic, either. Increase the duration on Serpent Sting’s DOT, and maybe Wilderfire Bomb’s. Have Survival spend a bit more time outside burst windows, and a bit less time in them. Tune some numbers (the eternal struggle) and you’re good to go.
I understand there are people who loved how old Survival played. It sucks they lost that. But that happens all the time, across a lot of classes. My guild hasn’t shut up since Blizzcon about how bad they want Gladiator stance back. Now they’re all hyped up on 2H Frost making a comeback. I’m sure there are players who miss the Astral Power balance Druid was sporting back in … Cataclysm? WoD? I dunno, I don’t druid. Or the choice to play a bleed focused Sin rogue - that hasn’t been viable since early Legion.
Every choice Blizzard makes comes with a pile of players who insist things were better before. But the fact is, they come with a pile pf players who like how things are, too.
You seem to think that the only opinions that matter are those of people who played the spec back in WoD. But if Blizzard intends to continue on the path of a bag of tricks melee Survival, it seems to me the opinions of players who play and enjoy - or at least want to enjoy - the spec are more valuable than the opinions of players who continue to bemoan the loss of an old spec.
Four years, man. I’m sorry for your loss, but move on.
Because BM has the original signature nuke Kill Command and they took the same ability and animation and dressed it up differently for SV. It doesn’t matter if you think the SV version is better. They took something that belonged to BM and cloned it into SV.
The whole god-damned point of making SV melee in the first place was exactly to prevent this sort of thing yet they’ve gone and done it 1000x worse. SV when it was ranged wasn’t cloning MM signature abilities like Aimed Shot. At the very worst they moved a very minor part of MM that never had strong representation in the spec into SV (Serpent Sting).
This is empty spin-doctoring and you know it.
The default BM Hunter just has the Hunter himself and the pet. You have to either spec into Animal Companion, letting you have two specs at once (how does this imply less of a bond to you? both of them are tamed and in the stable) or Dire Beast which lets you call an extra pet periodically.
It’s not enough to just steal Spirit Bond from BM after an unbroken 14 years of BM having access to it and originally owning it, moving it into SV, and saying “see? SV is a pet companion instead of master”. That would be a weak distinction even if they represented it through the toolkit. Which they don’t. The two elements of SV’s gameplay, Kill Command and Coordinated Assault, are nigh indistinguishable to what BM does with the pet.
You know what people say when I point out the difference between ranged SV and MM? They say it’s “not enough” and at their core they both just use a ranged weapon and therefore they must be the same thing. Ranged SV focused on special munitions and utility while MM focused on methodical, long-range physical burst. What you’re describing is far less distinct than that.
Don’t even begin to pretend SV is more representative of the Hunter’s original class theme. The Hunter’s original class theme is outlined right here:
https://i.imgur.com/kBVr5Uc.png
The Hunter is unique because it has a ranged weapon with ranged abilities including Auto-Shot as well as a pet companion. A Hunter spec that can’t use a ranged weapon beyond a tokenistic animation for a single ability is almost as far as you can be from the original Hunter theme, and I say “almost” because the Legion version managed to be even worse.
Arbitrarily not using the ranged weapon is the exact opposite to exploiting “every advantage”. Lacking the unique trap buffing mechanics that ranged SV had since Classic means it lacks the utilitarian theme you think it has. It’s not enough to just write “adaptive ranger that uses traps” on the spec description and call it a day.
Like I said above, BM is not commanding a small army of pets. It seems as if you’re living in Legion with the zoo build.
This is also a crap excuse for SV’s absurd dependence on BM pet aspects. And given that SV’s focus generator and major cooldown depend on the pet they are actually very reliant on that pet regardless of how you spec.
If SV really were a jack of all trades with all these tricks, where the hell is their capability to use a ranged weapon? You would think that would be the single most important part. Why isn’t it using THAT advantage?
Uh, no, it wouldn’t, because it’s a boring “do more damage with focus-using abilities”, similar to Marksmanship’s mastery, except they tacked on the pet focus with Spirit Bond. Nothing about the mastery speaks to anything other than the pet focus + raw damage. I didn’t even think ranged Survival’s mastery was that good but at least it spoke to the strengths of the pet: you did more elemental/magic damage, which made sense because Survival’s toolkit was made up of a bunch of special ammunition shots that did magic damage. It didn’t have to steal MM’s increased range or BM’s pet focus.
What are you talking about? I’m still saying there shouldn’t be a melee Hunter spec at all. It doesn’t fit the class identity to have one of our specs be melee, it will forever be problematic when considering the baseline elements of the class and the fact that we can no longer have both a ranged and melee weapon equipped (next expansion you will STILL start with a ranged weapon, level to 10, and then be required to ditch that and pick up a melee weapon at level 10, which is just a joke), and it will forever be something without a significant audience within the Hunter class. At most there should be a non-baseline option to be melee within BM (since clearly they can’t come up with a melee Hunter that isn’t just BM-lite).
A melee Hunter clearly isn’t fine given all the issues it has caused since its inception. You’d have to be extremely deluded to think otherwise.
AGAIN with the “pile of beasts” misinformation. Get a clue about what BM actually does.
It’s ridiculous to claim that Legion SV infringed on BM’s identity more than the current one. Don’t get me wrong: it absolutely did infringe on BM’s identity and I pointed it out many times during Legion. But BFA SV is far worse. Legion SV had a unique cooldown and mastery, even if they were pet themed. And while Flanking Strike was absolutely a Kill Command clone they at least did a better job at covering it up. Now you have Kill Command, a cooldown that is almost a carbon copy of Bestial Wrath, and a mastery that’s a passive effect always iconic of BM to the point where it was a BM artifact trait in Legion.
They can improve the spec mechanically all they want. I’m not going to deny that it works decently at a mechanical level; it has a flow to it, it’s streamlined while not being overly pruned, and you actually have interaction between abilities in the toolkit. All untrue of the Legion version. Mechanical flow isn’t the issue here. It doesn’t fix any of the issues associated with a Hunter spec lacking a ranged weapon (no, not even if they use a fake ranged weapon in a couple animations), and working well mechanically isn’t even something that depends on being melee. Ranged SV also had a great gameplay loop.
Firstly, other bad class design decisions don’t justify this bad class design decision.
Secondly, Every single one of these examples in your false equivalency is a variation on a spec that still exists. Nothing comes close to what happened with Survival, where they cut out the baseline spec entirely and replaced it with something that had no ties to what it was before.
Well, nothing except for Demonology, which doesn’t help considering that was also a bad decision that turned out terribly. At least Demonology was ranged before and after its Legion rework, unlike Survival.
Ok cool. Before, Survival was a very popular spec. Now Survival is a very unpopular spec. So I guess each of those “piles” isn’t equivalent.
I think people with a longer history with the class matter more, yes. Especially considering that Survival before Legion was a spec that was enjoyed by very many Hunters from casual content up through endgame.
P.S. If ranged Survival players didn’t matter enough to preserve that spec, and there were so many more of them, why should melee Hunter players matter now? Melee favouritism?
It could be 8 years and I’ll still be at it. I’m not going to pretend their crap design decisions are good just because it’s been a while and your empty tone-policing won’t change that.
Ya maybe good isnt the correct term im looking for.
They just arent as skilled at crafting a cohesive class feeling.
I was more just trying to highlight that the game used to revolve around your character and its place in the world. Now it seems more like a shallow husk for the players to experience game mechanics through.
I commend them for branching out and trying something new with melee survival. Its just in a weird spot and it wouldn’t be the worst thing in the world to revert back to something like Mop or WoD.
Seriously. It’s getting a little absurd at this point.
Yes, Bepples made this thread. But it’s a great thread that is very useful.
It would be nice if all the MSV posters stop going out of their way to attack Bepples over MSV/RSV.
(However, I was VERY shocked to learn that MSV has a 50% damage penalty for using ranged weapons. Seriously?)
I’ve also been following the Shadowlands Alpha Hunter thread. Has it been linked in this thread? (I’ll check after I post.) If not, it’s probably a good idea to link that thread too.
So far, Dunes and the other alpha testers have been doing a great job!
Why does MM will have precise shot in shadowlands? between aimed shot, rapid fire and buffed arcane shot, MM hunter doesn’t have a lot of gcd for anything else. Why can’t Blizzard just replace Precise shot with lock and load as baseline proc?