what is even more insanity is that he would accept such dumb peace in the first place.
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Thatâs blizzard writing for you. Donât think about it.
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Couldnât find any source for it, but WoWpedia claims that at the end of MoP Varian is talking about reclaiming and cleaning GilneasâŠ
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The Horde lines broke and we lost our leader. The fact that the only way that the Horde could have possibly done âthe right thingâ was to allow it in its entirety get eradicated on the Broken Shore to give the Alliance even a chance at taking out Gulâdan ⊠is rather insane. Also, no, as much as I approve of the results of Genn and Rogerâs little gambit ⊠their reasoning for doing so was BS.
The Horde broke on the Broken Shore, and were forced to retreat. Sylvanas sounded the retreat the moment the decision was made, so the Alliance had nearly the same amount of time to retreat themselves as the Horde did; from ⊠which was from offset an absolutely disastrous assault on the Tomb. Genn and Rogers then took it upon themselves to execute Varianâs threat, without the Horde actually having broken âhonorâ from the Hordeâs perspective. Unless ⊠you equate âHonorâ as risking sentencing all your people to leaderless death for the Alliance.
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Iâll agree with you there. Itâs insane that he would go along with it, and it was bad writing for him not to be given any objections to it. Itâs also super dumb that the horde never gave back the lands too, even if they were blighted.
It was also dumb for Tyrande to gift Azshara to the horde too, but putting that logic aside for a moment, the fact that the night elves actually donated land to their aggressors is INCREDIBLY generous and it was mind-bogglingly awful that there was no compensation for that. The horde should have been metaphorically kissing her feet for that.
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But we didnât know that, did we? Even Anduin still had his doubts until⊠Before the Storm?
Now, from Gennâs perspective, after ditching the Alliance to die in the Broken Shore, the Horde put the worst of them all in charge.
If the Alliance couldâve retreated from the Broken Shore with no problems, we wouldnât have lost Varian.
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Not to worry my Gilnean friend, I bring it up all the dam time. Here you go:
We need to investigate cleansing the plague from Gilnean lands so they can rebuild. We must contain Sylvanas.
Varian says this after you ask âWhatâs next for the Alliance?â The other thing he talks about is stationing a Garrison near Theramoore
The âtreatyâ established at the end of SoO was a hoax used as an excuse for loyalist players to try to villainize Greymane and the Alliance. Moments after it was âdeclaredâ, they still had the intent of getting right back to tying some lose ends like the Sylvanad/Gilneas situation.
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thanks with this means that his attack was indeed justified.
but then again the writting went 100x dumber where we got dumb things like the broken shore that has like 50 plot holes.
it is insane how badly written broken shore is.
to the point that i want to vomit.
âlets sound the horn and not just scream to varian that they have to go because they cannot resist any longerâ
âvarian, get your troops out of there! :Dâ
Done, no âbetrayalâ or stupid things like blaming the horde for varianâs death.
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What? No, it still wasnât justified. Containing Sylvanas doesnât mean fighting. Itâs limiting what she can do, and putting pressure on the horde to keep her in line.
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How do you think the Gilneans were going to get their home back?
Was Sylvanas just going to give it to them?
Of course they have to kick her and the Forsaken out before they do any kind of cleansing and rebuilding.
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here we would need to define what justified means.
To me, justified means that he still deserves to get justice and his vengeance because he do.
and even more consdering that it is not exactly like the real world, so can we really apply the rules of real world?
because in that world, the horde and sylvanas attacked his neutral nation without even provocation,destroying it. that is a fact.
Reinforced by the fact that in BtS apparently there was forsakens living on gilneas.
We held a public funeral for Volâjin outside of the gates of Orgrimmar. The fact that Volâjin fell at the Broken Shore was public knowledge before Stormheim. Genn and Rogers attacked the Horde in Stormheim solely for personal reasons; which honestly if Blizz wasnât so worried about keeping the Alliance squeeky clean ⊠should have been an impetus for War between the factions.
From the Hordeâs perspective, the Alliance attempted to enact Varianâs threat even while the Horde had âupheld honorâ. The perpetrators of this act where in no way punished for doing so; which means that through inaction Anduin showed his passive approval for them. Then, after âThe Gatheringâ, Anduin floods Orgrimmar with so many SI:7 agents you could literally trip over them, to make sure the Horde knows that the Alliance is watching them. And thus means that the Horde has no real sovereignty beyond what the Alliance allows them. On top of this, in Elegy, you actually do have Genn and Tyrande trying to push Anduin to preemtively attacking the Horde ⊠which means Sylvie actually had some merit in her arguments to Saurfang.
See ⊠these factors could have been used to actually make a more nuanced Faction Conflict story; if Blizz wasnât so worried about maintaining the Allianceâs flawless image, and ensuring the Horde remain convenient for Sylvieâs nonsense.
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Who cares?
Whenever this stupid point gets dragged out itâs only pointed in one direction. 'Oh, the Alliance didnât know what happened so itâs right of them to go right to betrayal and ambushes." And seeing as the Horde was able to have intel on what the Alliance was thinking soon afterwards, it seems odd that the Alliance doesnât have any intel on the Horde army being in disarray after the warchief was killed guarding the Allianceâs back.
If you want us to buy âGenn was right to treat the broken shore as betrayalâ then if you want to be honest, Horde has every right to believe that the Alliance pays back the sacrifice they made, and the fact that by sounding the retreat to warn of the trap the Horde saved the Alliance from a greater loss, by betrayal.
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I keep reading that sentence and canât keep myself from translating it.
âLetâs sound a retreat that Varian is most likely going to hear instead of screaming ineffectually into the din of battle over long distances and hope he hears it.â
Thereâs a reason when massed armies were a thing that you used loud instruments and drums to issue commands.
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Of course itâs justified, and thatâs not even because i dislike Sylvanas. Itâs because Greymane nor his people received any kind of reparations for the loss of their Kingdom, itsâ people, and Genns son.
Sheâs still occupying his Kingdom, therefore, they are still considered enemies until she ceases her occupation and the Gilneans reclaim their rightful home back, itâs not rocket science.
If there is one thing that I will defend Greymane or the Alliance on, itâs this.
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genn was not right to threat it as a betrayal because it was stupĂd in the first place, that is on the writters forcing the situation.
He is, however justified in his attack on sylvanas for destroying his city and killing his son.
That is really funny consdering that we could hear sylvanas screaming and talking to varian
âget over it and kill him already!â
We-could-hear-her literally 10 seconds ago making everything even more stupider.
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I donât mind people saying that Genn has reasons to believe the worst in the horde. Thatâs fine and I wish they werenât turning him into another virtuous leader who isnât driven by his vengeance into making bad moves. But it only seems to go one way, the Horde is just as justified in feeling betrayed by his attack. I mean they did after all save the Alliance from destruction after taking massive losses for no thanks.
Eh, that was when Varian was monologuing at the demons instead of killing them. But the point remains, sounding the horn WAS telling Varian they were retreating, and the Horde army. Varian and Genn had absolutely no confusion on what that horn meant. If they needed a detailed report on how dare the Horde realize this was a trap and sounded a retreat thereâs plenty of time after you get away from the demons who are busy killing you.
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I agree with your over all point, but Lorâthemar was talking about retaliation coming from Sylvanas. This was reinforced when Thrall said he thought Sylvanas would come to burn Thunder Bluff after Baine was rescued.
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Got it! I understand this, but I actually enjoy this mystique. And Iâm certain that this perspective is painting my responses. Itâs that kind of mystery that keeps me speculating, keeps me interested in playing, etc. If it was definitively revealed early on in BFA that âthis is why sheâs doing it,â I think Iâd be less compelled to care about the story. To me, it would have crippled the war story narrative.
However, to the points that have been made ad infinitum, this need to hide her motives to prolong her story - and perhaps the warcraft story - did a disservice to the horde characters. It made them more like props for her narrative. I can appreciate this, and I think this is ultimately why Blizzard had to tweak some story parts - as Sarm mentioned:
Again, my take is that I like the slow-cooked reveal. I like not knowing everything. Having some mystery. That, I know, is not for everyone. And I also donât want to assume that Iâm some connoisseur of literature/stories.
I always thought that quote was in reference to the initial events in the Third War. But I truly donât know.
I donât think she partakes in the burning of teldrassil, but she would definitely have to deal with the fallout and alliance counter-attack. To maneuver before such a counter-attack seems like relatively sound military judgment. As professional soldier - which I believe she ultimately is - sheâs going to find her place on the front lines. And up to that point I donât think she would have been given much of a reason to not want to defend her lands via a preemptive assault on Arathi.
However, I also acknowledge this is me filling in the blanks that Iâm seeing. I return to this:
I really would dig an epilogue that explained the mindset of most of the lore characters during the 4th war. I could easily see Liadrin having some inner-turbulence, though not unlike what Saurfang felt.
My humble take, no offense intend.
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Well yeah. Doesnât remove the other justifications for the attack - the Horde seemingly having betrayed the Alliance at the Broken Shore. Which even Anduin could buy, as seen in BtS.
Now if we couple this âbetrayalâ with Gennâs personal knowledge of how dastardly the Forsaken are and the supposed evidence from Aszuna of Sylvanas being up to very much not-fighting-the-Burning-Legion stuff in Stormheim, and voila.
The most bizarre thing about Stormheim was not Genn and Rogers going unpunished, but literally no-one caring one bit that Sylvanas was attempting to enslave an ally against the Burning Legion then or afterwards.
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