Shadowlands has strong Horde Potential

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

I kinda had intended to get this thread out a week after Blizzcon, after the initial craze died down, but I got lazy and failed to deliver. Better late than never, I suppose.

Ok, so hear me out.

We are all relatively aware that the writing has been nothing less than absolute trash since WoD, and BfA has been the latest of these narrative travesties.

So now moving forward into the Shadowlands, we have Sylvanas now ripping apart the veil between life and death to feed her mysterious benefactor “The Jailer”, which is about all we know so far aside from covenants and seeing some faces from the past.

And you might be thinking:

“So Pyro, they’re just out to ruin Sylvanas’s character and the story even more, not to mention vassalized the Horde to the Alliance, and now we’re about to be led by yet another former Alliance character turned neutral, how could this expansion have more potential for us?”

And that’s a legitimately solid question. So I’ll list out a few story beats that could be met within an expansion like Shadowlands:

1. Thrall confronts the spirits of his past and eventually overcomes his midlife crisis not only gaining his shamanic abilities back but being a stronger shaman and even returning to his roots as a character. Green Jesus, or withdrawal Jesus would be no more, and we’d have our red-blooded, shamanic powerhouse again.

2. The return of old “friends” and much needed refill of the Hordes leadership roster. I mean, we’ve already been told 3 characters who will play active roles in SL; Kael’thas, Vol’jin, and Draka(unfortunately). Perhaps we’ll bump into more throughout the expansion. Unexplored Old school heroes like Kargath, Gorefiend , and Zul’jin or maybe some contemporaries like Garrosh, Putress, and Zaela.

3. Newbies stepping up to the plate. SL and the new starting zone, Exiles Reach, are good opportunities to introduce some much needed new blood to the main roster. There is no better time than to depict a Sylvanas-free Forsaken force than within the Shadowlands, perhaps they send a contingent of Deathguards led by High Executor Anselm to Maldraxxus, maybe we bump into a fully-voiced Chadwick Paxton and his gang somewhere in Revendreth. Who knows, maybe they’ll set up a cast of characters with the new starting zone for later use in the expansion or in the event of another world revamp expansion.

4. And I think this is the most important one, Horde can find some semblance of redemption for its’ actions at Teldrassil. Perhaps not with Night Elf or Alliance fans, but with itself. I mean, none of us asked for this, there was no one Hordeside who were clamoring for the attempted genocide of an Alliance race, and those who were are the extreme minority. Most of us were not keen to have that amount of innocent blood on our hands, and are still appalled at the state it left our faction in. Now we’re a gang of bloodthirsty mooks who’ll commit warcrimes on a dime, so long as we’re told to do so until it’s literally spelled out for us that the person who ordered it was a jerky Mcjerkface all along. So how does the Horde redeem itself for such a horrific crime?

Simple; it doesn’t.

I mean, lets all face it, it’s virtually impossible to “redeem” such an act as genocide. So the only thing the Horde can do is try to make ammends as best as they can, and what better way to do that than help free the souls of innocent Night Elves trapped in the maw? It won’t fix the damage that was done, but it’s a start. The Alliance and Night Elves don’t need to feverishly start kissing our hands after we perform this deed, it’s not like all will be forgiven, but it’s a start to the long road of healing for them. The Horde being responsible for doing something remotely progressive towards that goal is a good start.

Anyways, these are just a few ways that the Horde can have some positive developments in Shadowlands. The only thing in the way is whether or not the writers are capable of making the most out of it, especially after having deliberately divided the entire playerbase. Horde players at each others throats over the whole SF v Sylv debacle, Night Elf fans cursing their faction for it’s apparent ineptitude in permitting their “vengeance”, players from across factions arguing over whose side had it worse in BfA. This isn’t positive storytelling, this is misleading the playerbase into believing one side or the other is to blame for the crappy story, when it’s simply just the writers. Going into Shadowlands, people are now wise to the writers antics and will not be fooled again, so either they get their $ together now and give us a story of even a modicum of quality or they risk their already decreasing playerbase to decline even further.

[Anyaceltica-llane (Anyaceltica)]

Maybe its just me, but the entire “land of the dead” slick screams of a desperate last hurrah by bringing back notable popular NPC’s since creating new and decent NPC’s requires actual effort.

Why exercise actual creativity when you can just reuse the same plots and NPC’s over again?

[Frankenfiend-the-scryers]

How optimistic! But there are some problems I think you are flossing over.

1.) No one really wants to see Thralls angst play out over an entire expansion. No one responded to it positively in Cataclysm the first time through, no one was particularly into it in WoD. Thrall ‘facing his past’ is a story thread that’s been run into the ground. ‘Whiney introspective Thrall’ is not the Thrall the Horde needs, it’s ‘will fight for the Horde because he has faith that it can be something better’ Thrall that would be more important.

2.) Most of the time that ‘old friends’ of the Horde shows up it’s as Dungeon fodder. This was very true in WoD, which this next expansion is similar to, that if they were a famous Horde character that just meant the Horde got to fight side by side with the Alliance to kill them - again. It’s nice to think Vol’jin might have an important role to play, but since they couldn’t even write that for him when he was Warchief, it seems unlikely.

3.) since the Covenants are such a major part of the expansion it is likely no appreciable Horde or Alliance specific forces will be fielded in Shadowlands. Much as how the factions were sidelined in favor of the Order Halls in Legion, the chances are that most ‘new blood’ to the story will be related to the Covenants specifically and to the Shadowlands in general - And like the Order Halls, like as not to be forgotten after the expansion is over.

4.) Redemption from a narrative that foisted guilt on the playerbase to begin with is as hollow as the guilt itself. The truth is any ‘redemption’ for the Horde that comes up in Shadowlands will be as forced as the War of Thorns and likely just as unsatisfying. While individual ‘heroes’ might be able to make choices to alleviate their consciousness about their role in the narrative, the very fact that said narrative is so flawed renders any and all resolution to it to be meaningless.

[Sarm-malganis (Sarm)]

Point 2 feels absolutely worthless to me because just reintroducing those old characters to use them up one last time feels like a creatively bankrupt idea. I really don’t care what Kael’thas, Vol’jin, or any others are doing. They’re dead. As far as I care, their characters are already over. And if they somehow do come back with us after Shadowlands, I’ll continue to not care about them and would rather they get killed off again. Just like the pointless WoD orcs.

I know WoW’s writing has never been great or anything, but this “let’s see how these irrelevant ghosts are doing” is exceptional schlock and I don’t get how you could think this is a good thing.

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

I think this is the most important one, Horde can find some semblance of redemption for its’ actions at Teldrassil. Perhaps not with Night Elf or Alliance fans, but with itself. I mean, none of us asked for this , there was no one Hordeside who were clamoring for the attempted genocide of an Alliance race, and those who were are the extreme minority. Most of us were not keen to have that amount of innocent blood on our hands, and are still appalled at the state it left our faction in. Now we’re a gang of bloodthirsty mooks who’ll commit warcrimes on a dime, so long as we’re told to do so until it’s literally spelled out for us that the person who ordered it was a jerky Mcjerkface all along. So how does the Horde redeem itself for such a horrific crime?

Simple; it doesn’t.

I mean, lets all face it, it’s virtually impossible to “redeem” such an act as genocide. So the only thing the Horde can do is try to make ammends as best as they can, and what better way to do that than help free the souls of innocent Night Elves trapped in the maw? It won’t fix the damage that was done, but it’s a start. The Alliance and Night Elves don’t need to feverishly start kissing our hands after we perform this deed, it’s not like all will be forgiven, but it’s a start to the long road of healing for them. The Horde being responsible for doing something remotely progressive towards that goal is a good start.

Anyways, these are just a few ways that the Horde can have some positive developments in Shadowlands.

I agree with all this, and I think it is likely to happen with Tyrande in Ardenweald.

[Veloran-wyrmrest-accord (Veloran)]

They didn’t even bother to have a Horde PC in the features trailer, so I wouldn’t get your hopes up.

[Arlifrex-moon-guard (Arlifrex)]

Shadowlands at best is a character expansion, and as far as horde characters are concerned, aren’t likely to play a large role. I don’t think the souls we see in these zones will be faction specific, beyond Vol’jin.

[Ëlësåna-maelstrom]

I mean, lets all face it, it’s virtually impossible to “redeem” such an act as genocide. So the only thing the Horde can do is try to make ammends as best as they can, and what better way to do that than help free the souls of innocent Night Elves trapped in the maw?

Well there are 3 main things that would stand in your way with that suggestion:

1. The writers wouldn’t be able to think far enough for something like that, not even close
2. Many horde players would complain about that and it would be changed.
3. It would be a good thing for the Night Elves and that’s not allowed.

Besides, the writers have proven from time and time again that they don’t want the horde to redeem itself or the Horde making peace with the alliance.

Don’t get me wrong, I like your post and your suggestions, but the writers aren’t capable of thinking in a logical and reasonable way. They already think the horde is redeemed because Sylvanas betrayed him, and when the jailer betrays Sylvanas, will she be redeemed next?

[Kaileena-the-scryers (Kaileena)]

Horde can find some semblance of redemption for its’ actions at Teldrassil. Perhaps not with Night Elf or Alliance fans, but with itself

There is nothing they can’t do to atone for what transpired. If they think that they are lying to themselves.

So the only thing the Horde can do is try to make ammends as best as they can

They can start by vacating Warsong Lumber mill and Splinter tree Post and never stepping foot into Ashenvale again.

and what better way to do that than help free the souls of innocent Night Elves trapped in the maw? It won’t fix the damage that was done, but it’s a start.

It’s a start, I guess. But the thing is that they wouldn’t have even been in the Maw had it not been for the Horde. The sad fact for the horde is that they will forever be tainted by Teldrassil.

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

But the thing is that they wouldn’t have even been in the Maw had it not been for the Horde. The sad fact for the horde is that they will forever be tainted by Teldrassil.

Serious question for you and Alliance players who hold similar opinions: is there anything that would cause you to feel differently? Because if there’s nothing the Horde can ever do to make up for it in your eyes, there’s no point in the writers even trying to craft that sort of storyline.

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

Maybe its just me, but the entire “land of the dead” slick screams of a desperate last hurrah by bringing back notable popular NPC’s since creating new and decent NPC’s requires actual effort.

It’s desperate cuz they don’t particularly have alot of plot threads they can work with for how massive of a hole they dug themselves into with BfA, wasting two big alternative plots that could’ve very well been their own expansions(Azshara and N’zoth respectively) and doing the Zandalar plot without Vol’jin was just a massive whiff for me, even if it still ended being good primarily thanks to Rastakhan and Bwonsamdi.

In addition SL is basically one of the few plots that could actively fix quite a bit of what they broke, bringing misused dead characters back to life and mitigating the damage done from events like Teldrassil.

The only other plot I can think of that could do this is straight up Bronze Dragons and hard retconning most of the story up to this point entirely, which for gameplay purposes would be hard to do, since I’m sure nobody wants an expansion in which we’re literally re-doing expansions all over again without drastic changes. (How would they make Cataclysm again, in a way that differs enough from the original.)

[Amadis-draka (Amadis)]

Because if there’s nothing the Horde can ever do to make up for it in your eyes, there’s no point in the writers even trying to craft that sort of storyline.

As with the rest of the story, it doesn’t really matter what it is in the eyes of the players, just whatever the writers decide is canon.

Night Elf fans would have no more say over the Horde being pardoned than Horde players have over Jaina being pardoned and having to work with her.

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

1.) No one really wants to see Thralls angst play out over an entire expansion. No one responded to it positively in Cataclysm the first time through, no one was particularly into it in WoD. Thrall ‘facing his past’ is a story thread that’s been run into the ground. ‘Whiney introspective Thrall’ is not the Thrall the Horde needs, it’s ‘will fight for the Horde because he has faith that it can be something better’ Thrall that would be more important.

Well how do you think he’s going to get to that point if we don’t have some kind of plot that involves “whiney retrospective Thrall” returning to being the “I have faith that the Horde will become something better” Thrall. We need an onscreen transition or a novel to depict that.

As I said for everything else including this point, all can be solved so long as the writers get their act together.

Like, what if all those “old friends” aren’t written as one-off dungeon fodder? What if the narrative is written in a way in which by the end of the expansion, they return to the realm of the living before the veil is fixed. What if we actually had some long-term results at the end.

What if, like the Legion OH, we actually get important deceased lore figures from across the Shadowlands become part of our covenants. Like sure, it might just be members from the covenant races like the Venthyr or the Necrolords, but what if alongaide them we also recruit some deceased figures of our past to join these covenants. Like Anduin Lothar with the Kyrians or Apothecary Putress joins with the Necrolords? We still don’t have a clear idea on how the “Covenant Halls” will work, we just know there’ll he a campaign for each. But might we also have a mission table or followers/champions?

As for your final point, I mean, what choice do they have. They screwed the Night Elves and the Hordes reputation with a single incredibly flawed event, they’re going to use flawed logic to fix what they broke. Kinda like the Shadowlands itself, come to think of it.

[Julia-icecrown (Julia)]

Are we talking about a serious story with the writing/gameplay experience put in to make the story work and be worthwhile or are we talking about a magical light-switch to be thrown “Draenor is Free” style and call it done?

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

You’re really confusing me here because you first say that you wouldn’t care about characters in SL cuz you know it’s only temporary, but then you say that even if they stuck with us for keeps and were long term, you still wouldn’t care. Then you go back to not caring because seeing “irrelevant ghosts” is “schlock”.

So are you saying even if these “ghosts” came back to life and returned azeroth and became full-time characters who would last, it still wouldn’t matter to you?

[Aviala-wyrmrest-accord (Aviala)]

Serious question for you and Alliance players who hold similar opinions: is there anything that would cause you to feel differently? Because if there’s nothing the Horde can ever do to make up for it in your eyes, there’s no point in the writers even trying to craft that sort of storyline.

Personally, I’d want the bare minimum to be a plot where the Horde members who participated in the War of Thorns and the Burning were identified, and also shown to be Sylvanas loyalists who want nothing to do with the current Horde and the current Horde likewise refuses to have anything to do with them. And then Tyrande or the the whole Alliance or both the Alliance and Horde can stomp on them like we stomped on the Scourge or the Legion or any other NPC badguy who did anything half as horrendous as what they did.

Just something to show that the current Horde weren’t the ones who participated in the Burning, really don’t like that the Burning happened, and internally would not ever want to cause such an event in the future. Because I can’t get invested in rebuilding when the exact same people who murdered us last time are still hanging around, perfectly happy and able to do the same thing again.

On topic: I’m still disappointed that there isn’t any Shadowlands zone based on the Horde’s shamanic beliefs. I mean, seriously? They’re one of, if not the, biggest afterlife/spirit-based religions! (I’d rather have a shaman zone and let Ardenweald actually/still be part of the Emerald Dream instead.)

I am looking forward to hearing what will happen with Kael’thas, though. For all that bringing back dead characters cheapens the death of every character, Kael is one who really deserves a second chance at getting a good story. Though my faith in WoW’s writers is at an all-time low, so I’m not quite sure how to feel.

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

it doesn’t really matter what it is in the eyes of the players, just whatever the writers decide is canon.

But the eyes of the players are what I’m asking about. Hypothetically, if the writers were excellent and really wanted to make it work, is there anything they can even do at this point?

Are we talking about a serious story with the writing/gameplay experience put in to make the story work and be worthwhile or are we talking about a magical light-switch to be thrown “Draenor is Free” style and call it done?

The former. Let’s assume the writers decide they actually want to try to make it work.

Just something to show that the current Horde weren’t the ones who participated in the Burning, really don’t like that the Burning happened, and internally would not ever want to cause such an event in the future

If that happened, would it stop you from saying the entire Horde was “forever tainted by Teldrassil”? Or would you still feel they were basically bad at heart, just being shown to be not quite as bad as before?

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

Serious question for you and Alliance players who hold similar opinions: is there anything that would cause you to feel differently?

Yes, the horde could start showing good faith and trying to make ammends, that would be a start, seems like baine is into it but then again that can be seen as humilliating and i can see why people would not really like that.

and i understand if that is not ideal for red players.
But that is what it needs to happen to make me, feel differently about the horde.
maybe anduin is right and they can be redeemed, or maybe he is an idiot for trusting in the horde again, just like the rest of the alliance.
and we should have killed them all. or at least make sure that we die taking them with us.

[Yvenathilm-fenris (Yvenathilm)]

As for your final point, I mean, what choice do they have. They screwed the Night Elves and the Hordes reputation with a single incredibly flawed event, they’re going to use flawed logic to fix what they broke. Kinda like the Shadowlands itself, come to think of it.

They can even decide to make their “you did not see everything” line concerning Teldrassil true by inventing conspirators on the Night Elves’ own side to fan the flames in the name of the Jailer.

The fact that Sylvanas risked death at the hands of Malfurion despite her plan is most especially suspicious considering the words of Il’gynoth in 8.3:

Il’gynoth: The vassal of life disguises treachery. Beware the eyes of green.

Malfurion is one of the only 5 Vassals of Life with Green Eyes in existence aside from the Genesaurs: the others are Ysera, Remulos, Ammunae and his successor Asennu created by the Amathet.

That last one is a Rare Elite mob in 8.3 and obviously not going to be allying with us in order to backstab us.

The thought of Remulos backstabbing us and his father does sound like an interesting notion since it would mean that his being melted down by Moonkin drove him mad.

If Ammunae even attempted to ally with us within the Shadowlands we’d see betrayal coming a mile away since he wouldn’t be in the Shadowlands Expansion allying with us following Il’gynoth’s prophecy about a backstabbing Vassal of Life with Green Eyes unless he was said Vassal of Life!

Genesaurs randomly showing up and attempting to ally with the Horde would be seen as suspicious from the start thanks to Il’gynoth’s prophecy.

[Zuleika-hyjal (Zuleika)]

Yes, the horde could start showing good faith and trying to make ammends, that would be a start, seems like baine is into it

Would that actually really change your mind about the Horde, though? Or would you continue to say/think things like “Maybe we should have killed them all”?