No they weren’t the first melee healer. I just told you why.
And Blizzard’s spell description says you’re wrong. I’m sorry, but it’s true.
edit: maybe you should be playing a demon hunter…
Also 1 pally would judge in the raid.
Also like i said you wouldn’t judge because its a waste of a GCD. You would flash of light for more healing. Judging would just decrease your overall healing. IDK how your not understanding that pallies didn’t heal in melee for vanilla.
Maybe you should go troll another forum.
edit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AY8nA2-kYo8
This is what paladin healing looks like. WOW look at all the melee she did. Not even 1 judgement. Pally didn’t get any benefit from melee damage when it comes to healing your raid. Your healing kit didn’t interact meaningfully with melee at all. You spam flash of light and that’s it. BTW this is classic where people try hard to kill bosses in 15sec or whatever.
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So heals only work when you’re in a raid?
There’s a very specific meaning when we talk fistweaving - it is the atonement equivalent for melee. Or, the ability to heal through melee. That seems to be the most clear semantic for claiming it as the “original melee healer”.
Here, you seem to understand that gear was meant to isolate your role. Further, there was minimal opportunity to excel in a given role while trying to do something “out of character”. Trying to be a melee healer would’ve been solely to maintain Judgment uptime for other raid members (although even Illumination provided better self Mana throughput on spamming FoL than managing swing timers between casts).
It became very clear within a few raid tiers exactly whether Holy Paladin was a “melee healer” or simply “healer”. Eventually, spell power would substitute both damage and healing coefficient, and Paladin actually became much more caster by the time Monk was introduced. Exorcism was how HPal was contributing any damage to fights at the time.
The argument that HPal was the “original melee healer” is reasonable but ignored endgame state, and the evolutionary path the spec took until Fistweaving occurred in MoP. If instead you were to try and make the case for Retribution instead, you may have an easier time; however, you would still run into the issue that Shaman and Druid were also doing it.
Having played Druid for most of my Vanilla experience, it’s more first hand personal experience, but there was substantially more time spent as Feral in melee while rolling heal over times than casting until it reached the same “pigeon-hole into cloth” scenario. Again though, the principle of “melee healer” is not so much as “can melee and heals” as it is “can heal by melee”.
Edit: just as an aside, this was really an explosion around the time of MoP as “smart heals” were the cool new thing. At some point, development decided that smart healing" components would die off.
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Ironically it was the same expansion, after the development of SoO and during the lead-up to WoD.
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I originally replied to this:
“But then again MW were the original melee healers.” – Jaskym
I respectfully disagreed based on the following:
- Melee: A confused struggle or fight at close quarters
Healer: One that heals or attempts to heal - Paladins are able to wear plate, and equip a shield. Such items are for a class that fights in melee range. Paladins can also heal.
But you don’t have to believe just me or any random dictionary. As per Blizzard:
Seal of Light:
Fills the Paladin with divine light for 30 sec, giving each melee attack a chance to heal the Paladin for 39. Only one Seal can be active on the Paladin at any one time.
TLDR: Paladins have been in the game longer than monks. Paladins have a spell that heals in melee range. To utilize all their abilities you need to be in melee range.
I get the point with the judgement effect, but a self heal does not a melee healer make.
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He doesn’t understand what it means to be a real damage/healer spec. He thinks because 1 paladin in teh raid might cast judgement to apply the seal that makes paladin the first melee healer lol. He’s a troll. Making random posts on an alt 20 priest is a dead giveaway.
Right now on Classic you don’t even see paladins doing melee dmg as a healer. They literally have the lowest damage out of all the healers. They are in fact the inverse of what monk was in MoP / WoD.
The only argument for melee healer in classic would have been Rdruid. Even at this you still didn’t melee or do damage to increase your healing.
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NOT EVERYONE RAIDS.
The class and their spellbook doesn’t cease to exist the moment you are not in a raid group.
You’re a little slow, so I’m guessing you’re the spot in the raid that gets carried. So go back to your little raid group and spam that one ability your guild trusts you to use, and collect your free loot.
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This is what we call the “I lost the argument and now resorting to random accusations” LOL. Happens with every troll. When you except the fact Hpally is the lowest dps and didn’t really use judgement or melee you’ll be better off. I even gave you a video as proof of how fun it is to heal in classic. You stand and spam flash of light AT range lol. Fun
I love waiting for the troll to exhibit this behavior. You trolls never disappoint me.
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What argument?
I stated facts, but I didnt write those facts in crayon so you’re forced to try and change the subject because you can’t understand a very simple concept.
Paladins can heal. Some paladin spells that provide heals require melee range. Monks were not a playable class in Vanilla.
What part of this is so complicated for you, do I need to draw some pictures for you?
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Its very clear. Paladins didn’t heal in melee range for raiding. Also if they didn’t apply that seal in a raid they for sure didn’t apply it in group content for the healing. If the seal isn’t worth on 40 people then it sure wasn’t worth for 5people in group content.
Super simple to grasp that Paladins didn’t do melee for extra healing. The only reason to melee was cause your bored. Applying that seal would of resulted in less overall healing also only 1 paladin in raid could even apply it.
Again paladins didn’t use melee to increase healing. You’ve already seen the proof. Your still claiming these things without any proof. Because 1 of their spells said it does something in melee doesn’t mean they used it.
Paladin was never designed to be a melee healer until maybe legion.
O BTW
If your so amazing where is your main??
Damn I read the title and wanted to see some interesting discussion going on about how they compare to each other, I’m personally more familiar with Glimmer but would love to see what ideas others have about how to make Fist-weaving viable in its own way (i.e. not a copy of glimmer).
Sadly, all I see is people attacking each other over a pointless argument about who’s the OG melee healer, WHO CARES!!.. What could have been a very interesting thread of actual useful discussion and feedback got totally derailed and turned into personal attacks.
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So, @Hypnodumper was the first to call this out… that post was from April.
I was trying to approach as an honest inquiry but I’m really getting doubtful. I guess the best you can do is hope @Jaskym clarifies what he could’ve meant all those months ago - was it “healing and melee” or “healing by melee”. At this point, it’s a strawman argument otherwise.
Not others (Good call out, @Ninh). Also, the healing was never substantial enough to be more than some “recovery” than actual healing - (like calling 5% leech “healing”).
@Rädamanthys, as far as the discussion goes, @Brujha pretty much sums it up with:
So in summary:
- Glimmer isn’t very good on beta right now
- Atonement is the only “heal by damaging” ability
- Fistweaving isn’t really achievable even with Chi-Ji (3m cd) and monastery lego (low healing, no cleave, non-hasted melee GCDs)
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But glimmer was a copy of our original healing style…jab jab uplift. You know, the one we want back, as long as they’re talking about “unpruning” classes.
Unfortunately one of the major issues with mistweaver is that devs don’t want fistweaving to feel mandatory, so they have to play this odd balancing game between fistweaving and the legion rework that made us into a boring passive healer. Ultimately, trying to balance between two different playstyles in the same spec is going to result in one being consistently stronger than the other, or it results in this weird mess where we kinda have fistweaving but it isn’t really fistweaving, like Rising Mist.
Combine that with the devs digging in their heels on discipline having a unique niche of damage to healing, and having different goals for the class than the community, and you get mistweaver monk. At least, we think they have different goals for us than the community does, but who knows seeing as they don’t communicate with us about the direction of the class.
Right now Mistweaver in Shadowlands looks like its going to be BFA 2.0, only without Way of the Crane and with SCK target capped. Our damage is also very lacking, so that contributes to our fistweaving legendary being bad compared to Extend Life or Clouded Focus. Chi-Ji does less healing than our normal healing rotation with renewing mist and vivify unless we stack a ton of mastery, which isn’t a good idea because mastery doesn’t scale with our entire kit and is a very weak stat.
That’s not to say that Mistweaver isn’t going to be strong. We’ll be in an okay place, at least if they can fix the bugs. But true fistweaving doesn’t appear to be in the cards for us right now.
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Kind of, but not really. Once the EnvB bug is fixed and Chi-Ji starts casting it again, you’ll start beating basic vivifies at about 70% mastery.
Even were it not, there’s a distinct use to an ability that allows you to fully switch to mana regen (especially with SotC) while keeping up even 70% of your healing.
I’m not sure how RM ‘isn’t’ fistweaving if you are considering Jab, Jab, Uplift (which the devs didn’t even want in MoP). In general it is the same ideal of using melee to build up resources for your healing; chi in MoP, ReM now.
I didn’t really say jab jab uplift was true fistweaving, that was really eminence, which was more akin to what atonement is. I was comparing Jab Jab Uplift to Glimmer, because the two play very similarly and we had the playstyle removed before they gave it to pally.
I do like Rising Mist, but the extension cap hurt it pretty hard. Not that I think having even the capability to have permanent hots was good, really, because hots really should be falling off at one point or another. But I miss building up blankets of 12 or 15 rems that I could vivify cleave with instead of just eeking out 6 or 7. That really comes out to how renewing mist is designed, though, and not Rising Mist.
So here’s my confession. I never played WoD or MoP monk. But, I have watched videos and closely studied how the toolkit was designed and it looks like it was a lot more fun than the half fistweaving style we have now. Rising Mist is fistweaving, but it’s clunky and a lot different than the MoP style. I wish I could experience that style.
I hope they do add EnvB back to Chi-Ji, because it would make the talent a lot stronger. I feel like removing it was intentional, though, although we can’t really say what is or isn’t meant to have happened because the devs don’t communicate with us. I plan on taking Chi-Ji in M+ anyways, because the other two talents aren’t really viable after the duration nerf to statue, but…it’ll be a lot different than WOTC is now.
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No questions on that, RM needs a few QoL changes so it isn’t quite so random.
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I think the final tier of talents should change the spec even more so for all classes such as mist weavers with the stronger font talent for ranged healing and the talent that turns weavers back into a semi damage to heal setup it had with rising mists. Let rising mist turn weavers back into the original fist weave build with maybe adding uplift back.
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