Shadowlands book coming july 14

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

Also if Alliance leaders which were for some time neutral apparently don’t count, but to this day you can hear complains over Thrall back in Cataclysm.

Yeah the difference is that thrall literally founded the horde, name one ally character that founded the current alliance and went neutral.

Genn was also featured in Cinematic and was MVP for Alliance in BfA imo

yeah i disagree.

If you use WoD because orclords of Draenor then it’s not exactly true. The biggest star of this expansion was Khadgar, Alliance recevied a heavy dose of the lore for Draenei, (sure it doesn’t advance MU Draenei by tiny bit, but it still explores their lore in interesting way), and you get to kill all those iconic orcs as you’d wish for.

In WoD Thrall randomly show up to steal something that, at the very least should have been jaina killing garrosh.

in the end it was all the same dumb stuff of horde finding themselves while the actual alliance characters didn’t even show up.
And of course khadgar betrayed us and went neutral. just like dalaran in legion, the only thing that we gained in mop, gone.

(sure it doesn’t advance MU Draenei by tiny bit, but it still explores their lore in interesting way)

you said it yourself, AU draenie.

Let’s hypothetically reverse this “Alternative Universe” and let’s have it about Vile human kingdoms on expanse where we have to unite to stop them. Would it be “Alliance favorite” expansion or not?

that would be fantastic. specially if they do are evil.

, but in 5.4 you do raid Horde capital, sure you don’t dismantle the faction

We helped the horde to get rid of their warchief, ask nothing in return, give azshara in good faith, not asking reparations for theramore that by the way is still a crater and only to be kicked in the nuts again and worse now in bfa.

but in reverse if Horde was to raid Stormwind but didn’t dismantle the Alliance - would you feel alright about it or not?

After the horde needs help from half of the alliance to do it? yeah, probably.

And for Cataclysm - I really get that Alliance was upset over losing the zones and I guess they’re not satisfied with explanation that it was to make things equal between Horde and Alliance leveling experience.

i understand if zone balance was an issue, so why not just destroy it by third parties or natural disasters ? at least it would be more satisfying that starting to lose everywhere, our zones arent’t even finished and filled with memes.

in the end Alliance did receive a huge chunk of new Lore, Malfurion

New lore? like what?
Apart from malfurion in hyjal and fandral going evil i really don’t see that new ally lore. and if anything, malfurion is probably more neutral than khadgar.

Do you have Horde alt by any chance?

Yes i do, i have 2 orcs a shaman and an orc.

I agree it was pretty bad, but so was Jaina flip flopping all the time. BfA completely ruined Saurfang and I wish he was ignored instead. Sometimes massive spotlight can do more harm than being flat out ignored.

Yeah “all the time” people can change their mind, you know, and she only did that after baine risked his neck for her.
seems pretty reasonable to me.
and my point about saurfang is that he was the main star, literally everyone else was just filler, they weren’t really important to the whole story, you know.
like, not even anduin.

Horde artrocities? What about Alliance artrocities?

Alright, if we really want to have a discussion on this. then we need to make clear what we are talking about.

if we talk about old horde, old alliance or just what they races did in general.

Why not talk about alliance “atrocities” of the current alliance.

i can think in 3 instances.
Camp taco, the purge and maaaaaaaybe dazarlazor.

While i do agree that the situation probably escalated more than it should and that it was bad.
Neither of them and i mean NEITHER are at the same level as the horde.

There are many more examples. I never denied that Horde did lots of bad things, but what is even more alarming is that Alliance players (at least majority that posts on forums to my experience) never realise that they did exact same thing as Horde did in order to sieze control over the territories they currently have.

oh i know. but here is the thing.

Current alliance never did anything close to what the current horde has done.

So if you’re so disgusted with Horde, why don’t you feel as much repulsed with Alliance? And yet you’re so personally invested, and claim the moral superiority of the faction you’re playing on.

Well i can go in detail on why the horde is disgusting in basically every aspect.

And blizzard, on purpose wanted to make ally players more enraged. and this is the result.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

Godbless you, Tihocan, for having the energy and conviction to do that which I do not.

[Pellex-hyjal (Pellex)]

oh believe me that not only is about the NPCS.

Well the idea of ending the war was not exactly popular. i think blizzard will play with that in the future. but i have some that said that contining the war is pointless.

I agree with you that those who side strongly with the night elves say rude things to and about anyone who wants to end the war. But do you hear Alliance players who want to end the war being in any way upset about the idea of night elves continuing to fight on their own? And does it look to you like the two sides have anywhere near equal numbers?

To me, it looks like the vast, vast majority of Alliance players would like to see the night elves do more to get revenge for Teldrassil. Almost no one is actually against that idea.

i know horde players aren’t happy but is not like horde players care about ally players either.

What’s your definition of caring about Alliance players? Lots of us have said, many times, that we want both sides to have a good story that will make them happy. Is that caring enough?

Or do you mean that Horde players don’t want to accept a worse story in order to for Alliance players to be happy? Because if so, then you’re holding Horde players to a standard that you’re not willing to meet.

if people like that faction then we will have entirely opposed ideas.

Liking the faction is a complicated thing. Liking the faction doesn’t mean liking everything that has been done with it.

i think is normal.

I don’t. If Blizzard were doing their job properly, most players should see all the choices as interesting and fun, just different. They might gravitate more toward one or the other, but they wouldn’t see the opposite side as alien or distasteful.

[Tihoccan-azgalor]

Yeah the difference is that thrall literally founded the horde, name one ally character that founded the current alliance and went neutral.

Khadgar was one of the “Sons of Lothar”
Malfurion is de facto second racial leader of nelf society
Turalyon was grand commander or something like that for Alliance.
Velen is racial leader for draenei, and their prophet that led them for thousands years.

Out of the above mentioned only Khadgar seems to be totally neutral character.
But he had very important Alliance background.

yeah i disagree.

You can disagree about him being important, but he deffinietly appeared in 2 cgi cinematics. So he isn’t totally ignored.

In WoD Thrall randomly show up to steal something that, at the very least should have been jaina killing garrosh.

or Vol’Jin.

you said it yourself, AU draenie.

AU draenei still had a interesting exploration, just like Arrakoa. If you dismiss them as unimportant, why AU orcs are ruffling your feathers? “It’s AU stuff, so who cares?”

that would be fantastic. specially if they do are evil.

Nice to hear that.

i understand if zone balance was an issue, so why not just destroy it by third parties or natural disasters ? at least it would be more satisfying that starting to lose everywhere, our zones arent’t even finished and filled with memes.

I agree that it is an issue, but that is not just one faction issue that is what I was saying.

New lore? like what?
Apart from malfurion in hyjal and fandral going evil i really don’t see that new ally lore. and if anything, malfurion is probably more neutral than khadgar.

I think defeating Firelord is pretty big issue, as well as Wild gods coming back to life. While Westfall had unnecessary CSI reference it did focus on the issue Westfall citizens had - in fact I made my human character to be from Westfall because I was inspired by their burdens, and my char was also (super) poor and tried to make ends meet. It’s very upsetting that sucha big issue was swepped under the rug, people eating dirt pies while Varian gets himself a new statues. THAT is astory I’d like to se explored on Alliance, I’d also like for House of the Nobles to get back in power, even trying to get control over Stormwind. But you’re stuck with Anduin. My condolences.

seems pretty reasonable to me.

Not to me, in the end Baine was still to blame for inaction - he did nothing for such a long time. And none of the actions he made helped alliance in a way, he just delived her deceased brother. At least I wouldn’t use it as a reason to stop fighting. And Jaina is a case study on it’s own.

and my point about saurfang is that he was the main star, literally everyone else was just filler, they weren’t really important to the whole story, you know.
like, not even anduin.

And yes and no. He had cinematics dedicated for him. In patch 8.1 he had one short questline, and then he appears yet again in 8.2.5 to die. If you’d use in-game spotlight I’d say that Nathanos appeared more. If it comes to cinematics. I think Saurfang ones should’ve end on Old Soldier and Alliance should get exclusive one for their own story. “Lost Honor” was as much painful to watch for Horde as it was for Alliance I assume.

Well i can go in detail on why the horde is disgusting in basically every aspect.

I’d like to read it. Or if you covered it already to link it.

Godbless you, Tihocan, for having the energy and conviction to do that which I do not.

Thank you hehe, I am referencing a kind ruler after all

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FW5O1G18pqI

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

But do you hear Alliance players who want to end the war being in any way upset about the idea of night elves continuing to fight on their own? And does it look to you like the two sides have anywhere near equal numbers?

oh… i think i see what you mean.

No, i haven’t really.
but then again, like i said i feel like is something that blizzard will do explore in the future, maybe to the same level.

not sure if that is going to be for the better or for the worse.

What’s your definition of caring about Alliance players? Lots of us have said, many times, that we want both sides to have a good story that will make them happy. Is that caring enough?

Well i do have seen a lot of horde players having sympathy, i saw them.
i do know that they have good people. many of them are also my friends.

But then again i have seen as well a vast majority who just want to piss of the alliance rather than anything else, and that of course puts me on the defensive to the point that i feel like i have to point it out that they aren’t the only ones playing the game.

Liking the faction is a complicated thing. Liking the faction doesn’t mean liking everything that has been done with it.

Well i feel like is a really good thing that characters are intended to different kinds of people and tastes.

I don’t. If Blizzard were doing their job properly, most players should see all the choices as interesting and fun, just different. They might gravitate more toward one or the other, but they wouldn’t see the opposite side as alien or distasteful.

But the way that blizzard has been portraying it is that we should hate the other factions and their characters.
is blizzard the ones who loves this kind of divide, i think that they are even proud of the toxity because “if you are angry that means that you care”.

[Velratha-azgalor]

And “having them all killed” - isn’t that very extreme?

after years of dealing with horde atrocities i think that it would be better for everyone to be like that, at least we all could preserve our dignity.

That is a strange concept of dignity.

i know horde players aren’t happy but is not like horde players care about ally players either. that is what i feel. and that is why i increadsily became more opposed to the horde and the players that defend it.

Oh I know the feeling. But I daresay it isn’t true for the majority of players on both sides.
Wanting good things for your favored race/ faction does not automatically mean wanting only bad things for the other. And people who really think like that are just bigoted jerks.

If Blizzard were doing their job properly, most players should see all the choices as interesting and fun, just different. They might gravitate more toward one or the other, but they wouldn’t see the opposite side as alien or distasteful.

Amen to that.

But the way that blizzard has been portraying it is that we should hate the other factions and their characters.
is blizzard the ones who loves this kind of divide, i think that they are even proud of the toxity because “if you are angry that means that you care”.

Then maybe, this is exactly what we should not do

[Pellex-hyjal (Pellex)]

But the way that blizzard has been portraying it is that we should hate the other factions and their characters.
is blizzard the ones who loves this kind of divide, i think that they are even proud of the toxity because “if you are angry that means that you care”.

I think they’re trying to walk a fine line, and not doing it very well. I think they want it to be like sports teams, in a good way. They want us to have friendly rivalries and fun debates about who would win in a 1v1 fight. They are promoting this endless toxic bickering through their actions, but I don’t think that is actually their goal. (I suspect “the fans are angry because they care” was damage control after they realized they’d gone overboard with the WoT.)

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

Khadgar was one of the “Sons of Lothar”

Yeah he didn’t founded the alliance.
He as well always has been someone who didn’t care much about the alliance but rather being neutral.

Malfurion is de facto second racial leader of nelf society

malfurion is also another weird example.
The horde attacked ashenvale during cata and what does malfurion do?
Goes neutral. sounds like he doesn’t care about his own people.

Turalyon was grand commander or something like that for Alliance.

He was the supreme commander of the alliance after the death of lothar during the second war and lead us to victory in the final battle.

But he really didn’t went neutral because he re-joided the current alliance after argus.

Velen didn’t founded the alliance, he just lead the draenie that fled from argus.

You can disagree about him being important, but he deffinietly appeared in 2 cgi cinematics. So he isn’t totally ignored.

and my point is that he was just secondary, exactly what i am complaining of.

or Vol’Jin.

Oh i think that i said it in the past but i do agree that volj’n treatment has been absolute garbage and he didn’t deserved to die like he did in legion just for sylvanas.

THAT is astory I’d like to se explored on Alliance, I’d also like for House of the Nobles to get back in power, even trying to get control over Stormwind. But you’re stuck with Anduin. My condolences.

And you see that’s also one of my big problems with alliance questing experience.i literally cannot remember anything important.
Do you remember that story in duskmallow marsh?
Yeah, me neither because it wasn’t even finished.

Not to me, in the end Baine was still to blame for inaction - he did nothing for such a long time. And none of the actions he made helped alliance in a way

i think that anduin/jaina understand that if he acted sooner he would put at risk his people at risk with sylvanas/horde reprisal because after all he did had a duty towards the horde.
Baine as well act like jaina did in the past when she was trying to get to peace, she said it herself “i know what is like trying to stop it when everyone just want to keep fighting” and accused as a big traitor simply for wanting to put and end to the bloodsheed, so she sees exactly where he is coming from and he did risked his life in her behalf, twice, and derek’s.
To me it seems like anduin/jaina thinks that baine is the last hope for having peace and not end up everyone dead and both sides destroyed.

And yes and no. He had cinematics dedicated for him. In patch 8.1 he had one short questline, and then he appears yet again in 8.2.5 to die.

What the CGI cinematics tell me is that is the main plot of the expansion.

is not surprise that the last big CGI cinematic was about him and sylvanas.
not even azshara or n’zoth seems to be as important, they, just like the rest were just… filler.

And that is my fear.

I’d like to read it. Or if you covered it already to link it.

Well i did a thread in the past about one of my biggest problems with how the alliance story is handled with the horde.

But if we talk about on why i choose the alliance over the horde.
i think that the best way to say is that at least the alliance don’t start wars for no reason.
or at least the actions of the alliance can easily be explained on why.

But some of the things the horde does have no explanation and being over the top evil because they think they are having revenge for… something.

for example, forsakens.
“we are cursed, so lets spread this course to everyone”
“we are not like the scourge!.. now lets turn this guy into a weapon”
“we are just misunderstood… now let me experiment this new blight on this human”.
“the alliance hates us for no reason… even if we blight,torture and experiment on people”.
“lets destroy this entire forest even if they are one continent away from us and nelfs never did anything to us”.

That is a strange concept of dignity.

The alliance could have some revenge and the horde at least can die with the honor of paying for their crimes.

Then maybe, this is exactly what we should not do

sounds easy,right?

i tried many times before.
but i simply cannot forgive the horde, i cannot do it, i cannot forget it, i cannot let it go.
Not sure what else can i do to avoid this… irrational hate that i have.
one would say “go outside” yeah, i have a lot of fun outside, but when i think about the story of this game, it all goes back to where it started :p.

I think they’re trying to walk a fine line, and not doing it very well. I think they want it to be like sports teams, in a good way. They want us to have friendly rivalries and fun debates about who would win in a 1v1 fight.

yeah maybe they think that is like a sport thing, all is fun and memes and stuff.

But they did went too far with a literal genocide that was on op top of other countless atrocities.

maybe is our problem for taking this too seriously.

[Julia-icecrown (Julia)]

They underestimated how popular Thrall was to the horde

I think they also overestimated how popular he was with the Alliance. Alliance players might have had some respect for him as an opponent, but they absolutely didn’t want to work with him as an ally. Even if he’d officially left the Horde by then.

I was around from late Vanilla. Thrall was definitely respected back then on Ally side but I wouldn’t go so far as to say popular. But then he was also contained to the Horde Story back then.

His respect began eroding in Wrath, particularly with Wrathgate and Uldaur. The deal with Sylvanas and Varimathras was always going to end badly but if it had only blown up in the horde’s collective face, I don’t think the Alliance players would have done much more than laugh.

But it blew up in the Alliance’s face and cost us Bolvar. That was when people starting pointing out in chat and on forums that Thrall allowed a dreadlord a position of power within the horde and it cost the Alliance.

Then with Uldaur Thrall’s diplomatic cred went to pot when the two of his advisors were Rhegar and Garrosh. It looks like a perfect diplomacy trap for Varian given Thrall confronted him with the slave owner that put Varian in the gladiator pits and then had hot-headed Garrosh there to respond to Varian inevitable anger over Rhegar.

It clearly wasn’t meant as a set up but it came off as more incompetence on Thrall’s part with who he was putting in positions of authority and power. There was discussion on who else could (and should) have been there than those two. And the Horde character roster didn’t hurt for candidates at that time.

That was basically how the ball got rolling on the Alliance’s perspective of Thrall being a cool character on the Horde’s side of things to not being so cool and no longer on the Horde’s side of things.

[Tihoccan-azgalor]

The horde attacked ashenvale during cata and what does malfurion do?
Goes neutral. sounds like he doesn’t care about his own people.

Kinda like Thrall? In the end he was no longer Warchief, and if you dismiss Khadgar’s background why you can’t do that for Thrall?

and my point is that he was just secondary, exactly what i am complaining of.

Listen, I’d rather have Genn as main Alliance representative instead of Anduin, but the point I was making was that Worgen were not totally sidelined, they were thrown a bone in the same way Darkspears were. That is always better than nothing.

Do you remember that story in duskmallow marsh?
Yeah, me neither because it wasn’t even finished.

That applies to plenty of zones tbh. Dustwallow marsh is as much memorable as Thousand needles or Feralas. It’s not exactly one faction issue but overall expansion design which was my original point. The only zone in Cata which really had satisfying story and made me truly immersed was Vash’ir - because in the end the bad guys win and nagas ARE a threat.

i think that anduin/jaina understand that if he acted sooner he would put at risk his people at risk with sylvanas/horde reprisal because after all he did had a duty towards the horde.

Same way of excuse could be used for any leader really. “They didn’t act because they feared for their people”. But all he had to do was consult other horde leaders and come to agreement to all act at the same time - either Sylvanas steps down or every other sub faction leaves so she is left alone with just her forsaken. Besides realistically I don’t think each racial leader would be happy with this peace as there are still matters to be adressed.

To me it seems like anduin/jaina thinks that baine is the last hope for having peace and not end up everyone dead and both sides destroyed.

At least you see some saving grace in it. I am personally not convinced. If I was alliance leader I’d make Horde fight each other and then finish the job when they’re weakened. But Alliance made a dumb move on top of dumb move, and so long Anduin is in charge you’ll never likely get any revenge.

What the CGI cinematics tell me is that is the main plot of the expansion.

is not surprise that the last big CGI cinematic was about him and sylvanas.
not even azshara or n’zoth seems to be as important, they, just like the rest were just… filler.

And that is my fear.

In this case I can agree. They delivered big bads in very underwhelming way. Previously mentioned Vash’ir had much better introduced enemy faction.

for example, forsakens.

Forsaken are an issue. I’d argue that since vanilla they were quite a torn at side. There was literally nothing that they had in common with the Horde and they never respected Warchief wishes, no matter if it was Thrall or Garrosh or anybody else.

I know that they have a huge fanbase, and I can see why people like them. But I was personally never fan of zombie stuff, and I guess some people would agree that Forsaken values and warfare doesn’t really mix well with the rest of the Horde. And signs for it were all over the place since vanilla.
I knew things will go down with Sylvanas in charge, but Horde players didn’t have any say in this. Horde players didn’t write or demand such a plot, and it was as much upsetting to them believe it or not.

BfA don’t have any winners, everyone is a looser here.

[Xamantul-ragnaros]

no, i didn’t said that, i said that it would be better than horde.

By your own bar? Sure you can be that biased but for the rest that enjoy the horde? Please dude stop being entitled as we know that almost everyone wants a rest from the Jaina/Anduin/Insert x alliance leader book where they do nothing but being some shiny example of the western values.

important nelf character… that goes neutral… he is not alliance. he is neutral.

But his book develops a lot Maiev and she has become an Alliance character

and gilneans have been sidelined as well so…

So has been Gnomes, Taurens(literally zero). Their time will come someday but complaining like a child wouldn’t accelerate the process. Besides Greymane appears in 2 cinematics and got their heritage armor questline about how are the good guys

Alright lets say that the horde was irrelevant for 1 expansion.
After they got 3 expansions in a row of HoRdE FinDing ThemSelves

I give you MoP and BFA but I feel more tired of the neutral characters being mostly from alliance background and not only that, they just dissapear later on “I’m out to buy cigarettes brb” which means all their spotlight was a waste and I bet even you are tired of that

after years of dealing with horde atrocities i think that it would be better for everyone to be like that, at least we all could preserve our dignity.

And any aggression made from the Alliance or revisiting their black history like conquering lands from other people is often portrayed as something heroic or forces to Horde to do atrocities so the little grey thing that was done by X alliance leader is white-washed.

Dude I get it, you hate the Horde doing atrocities but this cycle can’t be broken as long the Alliance has to be shown as the “role model jesus that put the other cheek” and that is mostly fault of Blizzard’s writers that can’t decide between fantasy or 40k warhammer type of approach.

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

Kinda like Thrall? In the end he was no longer Warchief, and if you dismiss Khadgar’s background why you can’t do that for Thrall?

Because thrall is back with the horde.
we cannot say the same for our boy khadgar.

That applies to plenty of zones tbh. Dustwallow marsh is as much memorable as Thousand needles or Feralas. It’s not exactly one faction issue but overall expansion design which was my original point. The only zone in Cata which really had satisfying story and made me truly immersed was Vash’ir - because in the end the bad guys win and nagas ARE a threat.

and thus my point that nothing really happened during that time in the alliance.
at least horde got a new warchief, and thrall became key at the end.
Oh, and how they invaded gilneas… i guess…

But all he had to do was consult other horde leaders and come to agreement to all act at the same time

and if other leaders didn’t agreed with him? he would be put in prison an executed for treason, derek don’t return and is tried to be used as a weapon and if he succedes the alliance doesn’t see any reason to trust horde anymore, if anything revenge would go stronger, the alliance would throw morals out of the windows and starts doing anything for victory out of desperation and the war would probably still continue until everyone is dead or at least one side is left too weakened to be able to defend itself from external threats.

At least you see some saving grace in it. I am personally not convinced. If I was alliance leader I’d make Horde fight each other and then finish the job when they’re weakened.

Assuming that the alliance can and should go to the last ressort and starts their genocide.

Forsaken are an issue. I’d argue that since vanilla they were quite a torn at side. There was literally nothing that they had in common with the Horde and they never respected Warchief wishes, no matter if it was Thrall or Garrosh or anybody else.

it seems to me that the horde not only is composed by literal war criminals but they also defend them.

i believe that is a HUGE problem for the horde and one of the reasons i can’t stand them.
we could even say the same about most races in the horde, orcs,goblins, mag’har.

By your own bar? Sure you can be that biased but for the rest that enjoy the horde? Please dude stop being entitled as we know that almost everyone wants a rest from the Jaina/Anduin/Insert x alliance leader book where they do nothing but being some shiny example of the western values.

i understand horde players not wanting any about the alliance or some characters.
That is totally fair.
You know why? because i want the same but the other way around. i would agree that we can rest with the above mentioned,but we still have many others characters in the alliance.

But his book develops a lot Maiev and she has become an Alliance character

Fair enough, but i don’t forget that maiev killed civillians so she can cut the bond with the alliance.

So has been Gnomes, Taurens(literally zero)

Gnomes got a respectable amount, even their leader was cool as a raid boss,and of course mechagnomes.

i would agree that tauren didn’t really got that much love with how they killed cairne and replaced him baine and they also defiled his memory by saying that his son is the best in their heritage.

And have you seen gilnean heritage? the only good thing was the damn hat!.

I give you MoP and BFA but I feel more tired of the neutral characters being mostly from alliance background and not only that, they just dissapear later on “I’m out to buy cigarettes brb” which means all their spotlight was a waste and I bet even you are tired of that

oh yes i do.
i believe that in legion for example, instead of letting the horde back in dala and allowing the murderers of rhonin who has a literal statue in that city
Why not make silvermoon fly or something like so they can have their own hub?

Of course, because it would take more time and energy for blizz not only create another city ,but also use horde characters as such.

Despite the fact that we both play the damn game and deserve our own story.

Like not seeing any orc or horde during kiljaeden’s defeat.
I know how does it feel when you aren’t even allowed to have revenge on someone because either you are forgotten or because someone else stole the kill.
Blizzard loves to do that. and i don’t understand why.

And any aggression made from the Alliance or revisiting their black history like conquering lands from other people is often portrayed as something heroic

i don’t deny that the alliance has done some bad stuff, i never did.

But can we say the same about the current horde and current alliance?.

Dude I get it, you hate the Horde doing atrocities but this cycle can’t be broken as long the Alliance has to be shown as the “role model jesus that put the other cheek” and that is mostly fault of Blizzard’s writers that can’t decide between fantasy or 40k warhammer type of approach.

and i wish that the cycle just stays like this, i don’t think that i would be able to stand another faction war.

What i want in this i will said it again.
i don’t mind talanji here, she does deserve closure, hell i can even see how she can improve the alliance story as well.
My only fear is that they focus entirely in the horde and they forgot that we exist THAT is my problem. and what has me worried mostly because they barely mentioned 2 ally characters.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

Because thrall is back with the horde.
we cannot say the same for our boy khadgar.

Took him nine real life years to return to the Horde. Almost an entire decade. Get outta here with that bullhonky.

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

Took him nine real life years to return to the Horde. Almost an entire decade. Get outta here with that bullhonky.

Did khadgar ever truly returned to the alliance?
seems minimal in comparassion. apart from the second war and maybe mop-wod he was mostly neutral. hell even in wod he was already neutral with his legendary ring.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

Did khadgar ever truly returned to the alliance?

No. But if he did, it wouldn’t retroactively make wotlk - now not neutral.

[Velratha-azgalor]

sounds easy,right?

i tried many times before.
but i simply cannot forgive the horde, i cannot do it, i cannot forget it, i cannot let it go.
Not sure what else can i do to avoid this… irrational hate that i have.

I mean, no, it’s fine. You can hate the horde, it’s not irrational at all. They have gone out of their way to portray the horde in the worst light possible in bfa, you know it, I know it.

And you don’t have to forgive and forget. Tyrande doesn’t, Genn doesn’t either, I’d say most of the alliance doesn’t, except for Anduin who we all know wants peace and harmony at all costs.

Look, I’m a troll fan, my race has been fair game in wow from day 1. Genocided all over again by alliance and horde alike. Does that make me angry? Hell, yes.

All I’m saying is, it’s pointless and unfair to blame the players for any of that.

Horde players didn’t ask to be genocidal warmongers, no more than alliance players asked to be damsels in distress.

In the end, we’re all victims of the same bad narrative.

[Tihoccan-azgalor]

Because thrall is back with the horde.
we cannot say the same for our boy khadgar.

Turalyon, Alleria, Malfurion are back on blue team too.

and thus my point that nothing really happened during that time in the alliance.
at least horde got a new warchief, and thrall became key at the end.
Oh, and how they invaded gilneas… i guess…

“They got new warchief” and Alliance got new king in Stormwind in WotLK. That’s only one expansion of difference.
“They attacked Gilneas” And Alliance likewise attacked goblins because “no witnesses”.

I don’t really see your problem here.

and if other leaders didn’t agreed with him? he would be put in prison an executed for treason,

This is what Vol’Jin did after Garrosh assasinated him. He first approached Horde leaders NOT Alliance. If he died, at least he would die trying.

derek don’t return and is tried to be used as a weapon and if he succedes the alliance doesn’t see any reason to trust horde anymore, if anything revenge would go stronger, the alliance would throw morals out of the windows and starts doing anything for victory out of desperation and the war would probably still continue until everyone is dead or at least one side is left too weakened to be able to defend itself from external threats.

Wasn’t Teldrassil a much bigger issue tho? I thought that was the burned bridge that was suppsoed to stop people holding back. Even if Derek would succeed and killed the Kul’Tiras leadership I don’t see it being as big blow as killing off population of entire zone.

Assuming that the alliance can and should go to the last ressort and starts their genocide.

They already did that, and proved that they’re capable of doing it.

it seems to me that the horde not only is composed by literal war criminals but they also defend them.

What part of my quote made you say this? And “defending war criminals” if that would be true then they wouldn’t turn against Garrosh and Sylvanas.

i believe that is a HUGE problem for the horde and one of the reasons i can’t stand them.
we could even say the same about most races in the horde, orcs,goblins, mag’har.

Goblin war criminals? Where?

Fair enough, but i don’t forget that maiev killed civillians so she can cut the bond with the alliance.

Does she though? Alliance isn’t really above to kill non combatants. They have Dark Irons among them - the dark irons that practice slavery and were spot using molten giants on Zocalo shoppers. Other Alliance members targeted Zandalari on Vol’Dun not because they did something to them or were even involved in the war at all, but because they’re trolls.
They have void elves which disturbed even WildGod with their foul practices.

So I don’t think that Alliance is this much better, they talk that they are but some of their practices show that they’re not that much better. And it would be fine really, they DON’T HAVE TO be a paragon of the most noble values, they can be scummy they can be backstabbing, they can do all the dirty stuff. They’re a rivaling faction they have to protect their interests, sometimes it requires to make hands dirty.

If you want to be paragon of good, then you’ll never stop being frustrated. If you want proper justice then get yourself ready. World politics aren’t about who is morally right, world politics are done by those who are smart and strong. That is sad but true.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

Yeah Alleria &/or whatever her husband’s name is, were actively trash talking the Horde during Legion.

[Etheldald-ragnaros (Etheldald)]

All I’m saying is, it’s pointless and unfair to blame the players for any of that.

i don’t think that i have blamed horde players, i blame the horde as a story faction, if people defend it doesn’t mean that i blame horde players for doing so.

Turalyon, Alleria, Malfurion are back on blue team too.

my point is that neither of them founded the alliance, because they didn’t.

I don’t really see your problem here.

not having a story is not problem?.

This is what Vol’Jin did after Garrosh assasinated him. He first approached Horde leaders NOT Alliance. If he died, at least he would die trying.

So is fine that the horde does any sort of atrocity as long they consult other leaders?.
that didn’t stopped garrosh or sylvanas before. so i don’t see any difference on why baine was acting on his own, if anything he would have faced the consequences, not the rest.

Wasn’t Teldrassil a much bigger issue tho? I thought that was the burned bridge that was suppsoed to stop people holding back. Even if Derek would succeed and killed the Kul’Tiras leadership I don’t see it being as big blow as killing off population of entire zone.

it seems like it was more as something that broke the camels back. teldrassil apparently was something that forced all horde on the defensive with an angry alliance. but anduin probably knew that sylvanas was the maximum responsible.
and that is why he also wanted peace, now, what would have thinked anduin if the horde killed auntie jaina or genn or any other?

Maybe that would be too much even for him and the horde would be beyond redemption.

They already did that, and proved that they’re capable of doing it.

What genocide the current alliance commited? because if you think that the purge is a genocide then i have some news for you.

What part of my quote made you say this? And “defending war criminals” if that would be true then they wouldn’t turn against Garrosh and Sylvanas.

That is not just forsakens the problems, is the very concept of what they are as a faction, their races, their characters.

Goblin war criminals? Where?

i don’t know, maybe creating bombs for fun and exploding stuff for no reason.

Does she though? Alliance isn’t really above to kill non combatants.

i know the alliance has some bad stuff but again, none at the same level.

We can talk again when the alliance blight, bomb, or destroy and entire city full of civillians in a war of agression.
THEN we can talk about being at the same level.

If you want to be paragon of good, then you’ll never stop being frustrated. If you want proper justice then get yourself ready. World politics aren’t about who is morally right, world politics are done by those who are smart and strong. That is sad but true.

Well, as you can see i play worgen rogue, so my morality is more simplier and less heroic.

i don’t want to be a paragon of good.
i want to give the horde a taste of their own medicine and lets see how they deal with the “forgive” part because i bet that not many will be happy that the alliance get away with their crimes.
hell, they already are for considerable less offences and after the horde provokes the alliance to do that stuff in the first place.

Yeah Alleria &/or whatever her husband’s name is, were actively trash talking the Horde during Legion.

Did you forget that the orcs invaded quelthalas and killed her people allied with the trolls?.
sounds reasonable to me
and turalyion didn’t said anything about the horde in legion.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

Did you forget that the orcs invaded quelthalas and killed her people allied with the trolls?.

No. I didn’t expect her to be neutral.

Just like I didn’t expect you to fib and say she was, if infact you did. If you did not make that claim, I apologize. These word walls are entirely too long.