Shadow QoL + Slight Rework ( edited )

Classes Priest
41

They may be closely related but that is as far as this goes, correcting some1 who projects and overemphasizes is not correcting a small error, and no I did not make a big deal about it you are doing it all the time. I was trying and still am to point out that it is quite opposite of what you are saying it would be but I guess you will remain unconvinced in that regard so I am not going to be trying to do that anymore as it is pointless at this point.

Yes I did read your quite enormous post and did not find there any quick and easy fixes to unused talents such as void shield for example, correct me if I am wrong.

Your suggestion in regards to unfurling darkness is not a good solution in PvE unless it does some significant dmg on application to compensate for the down time you have while manually applying your dots, we are living in a world of burst atm PvE wise you would know that if you played it so its either instant mass aplication and then pumping through psychic link / burst aoe / or some kind of competitive dmg while applying the dots otherwise your are gimping yourself and your group.

I may be a bit blinded in regards to PvP I`ll admit that and I thank you for the input but like I said too much projection and overemphasizing issues that are not that massive and can be easily played around I believe.

42

I gave my feedback for mostly gameplay focused.
Things like Void Shield i didnā€™t directly have anything to say about it because it does not affect gameplay, its a passive that helps longevity.

If I had to say anything, I would say that the core issue resides in Power Word: Shield itself in that its absorb is very minor thus it negatively affects Void Shield. If the absorb was to a much greater amount, it would make a bigger impact.

One big problem is the fact that scaling in each expansion with multiple raid difficulties and M+ gear scaling contribute to the massive item level inflation which I think affects the Absorb amount of Power Word: Shield to a degree that it just gets out scaled the longer the expansion goes on.

Back in Classic, Power Word Shield lasted for 30 sec with a 15 sec weakened soul duration and it absorbs a lot of damage.
In Modern retail WoW, its absorb is nothing compared to all the incoming damage. But if you make it too strong then will it be stronger then Discipline? That would be awkward. If not and you increase the absorb for all specs, then Discipline can easily dip into the Absorb type of healing and damage prevention.

So its a delicate balance.

I would note that the Hero Path talents would imo be a good place to increase the Shield absorb. Perhaps only for the Hero path linking Shadow and Discipline so they both get a benefit? I have some suggestions but I didnā€™t think on it too much.

This is supposed to be a supplement to our actual dot spread spell.

If you need to dot up more targets beyond what your dot spread hit, then you can easily bust out additional targets with dots.

Itā€™s intention is to just be a quicker way to spread dots on top of the main dot spreader. Its utility focused more so than raw damage.

So you would not use it single targetā€¦ or you would save it for the net time you need to refresh dots as the ā€œUnfurling Darknessā€ buff would not go away. it would just be a back and forthā€¦ or only go away when you leave combat.

Effectively adding a bit of mobility back into the spec because every other VT would be instant case, always.

I take into consideration all players in all walks of the game be it new or old, bad or good, PvE or PvP etc.
Some can play around it. Some cannot.
Why have unnecessary complications when you donā€™t need to? Just because the best players can overcome such an inconvenience doesnā€™t make it good or acceptable design. That is a horrible way to approach design.

43

Well I believe that it would be affecting game play especially PvP wise since if you doubled the amount of pws and cd it would allow for the void shield to give some more survivability which I think would be a desired thing PvP wise and if you also considered having a 80% movement increase for 3secs every 10-12 secs that might help creating some much needed gaps from melee and allowing you to cast without the need for a displacement ability which blizz seems to be very hesitant in implementing for priests.

Dont think that would be an issue with discipline as you would be increasing the cd of it alongside the shield amount increase , so in my mind it would stay balanced but more favorable for void shield talent.

Right so I am not interested in the supplement, I want the actual dot spread mechanic which is not a shadow crash or any variation of it unless it becomes a spell that hits a specific target and then splashes / spreads.

44

As I already mentioned, Unholy Nova and Cascade already exist.

Cascade I am more familiar with and the beauty of that is that it seeks out its targets and splits and bounces and if the targets move, it follows them.

Where as Unholy Nova is still limited to an area radius from the target.

So in essence, Cascade is the best fit imo as it can traverse all over the place but it can be set to hit and ā€œapplyā€ the VT spell to whatever target limitation they want.

But at it stands, it splits 4 times by 2 after hitting the initial target. So it ends up hitting 16 targetsā€¦ maybe it was 32? I cant recall exactly. All the while it chasing them down regardless where they go. So this will work regardless how fast someone moves or jumps away or a tank pulls mobs out of the area when you casted it etc.

Again, Unfurling Darkness would only be a cleave spell or just think of it as extra mobility in the sense that you have 1 less castable spell you need to stand still cast cast 50% of the time.

45

Tbh I would be fine with cascade spreading the dots as long as it would be a really short cd like 15 secs tops and would replace halo as to not add yet another spell to bind, I did like it in WoD it looked cool as well and was a nice thing to press but unfortunately that ability is nowhere to be found.

46

That doesnā€™t make sense when the dot duration floats around 15-21+ seconds for dots. that would require no hard casting. That is too strong.

I donā€™t know what the best cooldown would be, but pending how well we can extend the dot duration with perhaps a better version of Mental Decay as I mentioned or another method to reduce the cooldown of Cascade can both play a factor in how long the Cascade cooldown will be.

47

It does make sense so what that the dot duration is longer ? What you need a short cd for is low keys when packs die quick and you want it ready fast for the next pull you definitely dont want it on a 20s cd like a shadow crash because that is one part of clunkiness that it creates, you find yourself very often in a situation when pack is about to die your dots are falling off and you dont want to use a 20s cd because you need it next pull or you have to actually w8 for the shadow crash to apply dots because you have used some ability and caused a gcd and then by the time your shadow crash lands you are sitting there w8ing because dots have fallen off.

No need for mental decay either, get rid of it or find another purpose for it, we wouldnt need a dot extension at all if we had good dot spreading ability on a 15s cd I do think it would be a sweet spot.

Now how would you feel about having shadow crash removed and its place taken by void eruption but without the void bolt part attached to it which I think is redundant and adds unnecessary bloat in st rotation, so it would look something like this you keep the cast time on it and have it require 50 insanity so it would become a aoe spender further separating aoe game play from single target and giving us so much fun and cool animation used more often.

Now the dark ascension would still be a primary cd but in place where void form now is I would do a choice node that would modify how dark ascension works 1st choice would be increasing non periodic damage and the 2nd choice would be increasing periodic damage further adding some build diversity depending on the preferred game play and type of content, one would be better for tyra weeks while the other coupled with nzoth would be better for fortified weeks.

48

Well they will never make a dot spreader spell cooldown shorter than the dot duration.

So no matter what, you have to work within those parameters.

The only answer I can think of for quick death scenarios is each target that dies reduces the cooldown of the dot spreader.

  • Reap
    The cooldown of Cascade is reduced by 1 second for each of your damage over time spells the target is afflicted with upon death.
49

Edited the last post as I wanted to add something but could not w8 for a reply so have a look at it. And that never part is already untrue since shadow crash cd is in fact shorter then the dot duration its just not short enough and 5s less would not break a world.

But the reduction of the cd on death of the target is good too it is just not as good when you need to reapply the dots on the same pack.

50

Thatā€™s one of my suggestions if you read my feedback.

So of course I welcome this separation.

Your other bit is similar to again, my suggestion in my feedback already.

51

Well what do you know finally some things that we agree upon :open_mouth:

52

Which is why Mental Decay working with AOE would make this a non issue.

Once you apply your dots, normal gameplay rotation would keep them up all the time.

Having the trigger be Shadowy Apparitions works perfectly because itā€™s passive and it will always hit your targets that need dot extension because they can only spawn on targets with dots on them.

Again, already in my feedback.

53

There are two ways to go about it really either have a dot spread ability with cd short enough as to not have to worry about any dot extension ability and only require you to dot the 1st target or in a st fight the main target, which is I guess what they want for us to do is dot things manually every now and then, or like you and many ppl said have mental decay work with AoE but then you need another talent that would reduce the dot spread ability on death or by the amount of dots applied which is ok in and of itself but why add things and talents when you can reduce things and talents and have the same effect ?

54

Why have talents at all?

To customize your build.

If Iā€™m in a 5 man high level M+ key, things wonā€™t die as fast compared to a lower level key.

In high ranked PvP, again people wonā€™t die as fast.

But in low ranked PvP and low level M+ things will die fast.

Seems to be a compelling choice to choose between extending dot duration within the Mental Decay talentā€¦ or my Reap talent I just added above could be a choice with Mental Decay to instead pick a more fast paced style of gameplay where upon target death (With your dots) you get the dot spread cooldown reduced.

Now the player needs to decide do they think they will be in long form fights or short form fights.

Seems like an excellent situation for a talent choice node.

55

They already do on multiple classes, Thunderclap with Rend, Thrash, Primal Wrath, Sunfire, Lava Lash with Fire Shock.

56

Well Iā€™m more referring to more damaged over time focused classes and really only talking about priest because once again, balance and double standards as it seems we are held to a different design rules compared to everyone else.

But who knows, maybe they will make that change and we no longer would ever hard cast VT unless it got dispelled. But somehow I highly doubt that would ever happen.

57

Yes, itā€™s been pointed out to him multiple times but you canā€™t reason with schizophrenia.

58

Sure it is to customize your build but those talents are starting from a false premise and a place of disempowerment, talents should be building on top of your character rather then trying to shore up or band aid what is not working.

As I was thinking more about all of that and the way blizz mentioned they want us
to manually dot every now and then I came to this conclusion :

Lets take the idea of Cascade being the primary dot spreader not dot applier but spreader, the difference is you have to manually dot main target 1st which accomplishes
having to manually dot every so often. Then lets place the initial spell in general priest talent tree either as a 3rd option in a place with divine star and halo or replace one of those.

Then lets add as a choice node with misery a talent that would build up on cascade reducing its damage and cd to 10s ( so the ability is used primarily for dot spread rather then pumping dmg ) Now what this does is as follows:
1st of all gives a all round solution for dot spread no matter what situation be it long fight , short fight doesnt matter since cd is so short, it still requires you to manually dot once every 15s on main target which is what blizz wants us to do anyway.

Now going back to mental decay it can have a new and better purpose rather then being a silly band aid, new functionality could be: when you apply vampiric touch or shadow word pain it deals instantly ( 20-30 % ) of its total damage 15s cd ( unique per target )

How all of this combined would look like is you either pick up misery for pure single target or a council type of fight with only few targets alongside mental decay ( which would provide a bit of extra dmg every 15s making doting and redoting not be seen totally as a waste of time and outdated game play.
Meanwhile In a m+ or high number of targets kind of situation you would pick a Cascade talent instead of misery giving you an ability to spread your dots easily but still requiring you to dot main target and with mental decay alongside it you would not feel bad about having to dot the main target or re dot it every 15s since it would provide some extra dmg on the 1st manual application but not on the spread itself.

Now lastly I do believe we somehow have to get out of this double standards mentality, how to go about it I dont know but it has to be dealt with and put to rest once and for all as it is most unbeneficial.

59

Meh, you can go that direction for your feedback as you like.

But for me, I try to work within the established boundaries and parameters that already exist but just attempt to improve them.

Meaning for actual dot spreading and not mass AOE dot application, I would try to work in Devouring Plague to be the trigger to spread as that is more thematic.

But since they have already established Shadow Crash to apply dots to multiple targets, my goal is to make that action feel good and to accomplish that; Shadow Crash has to go or compete with a similar spell.

With the idea of Cascade competing with Halo and Divine Star, it was mentioned by the WoW devs that they would like to bring Cascade back but did not know how. Meaning someone decided that Halo and Divine Star should be a choice node together and leave out Cascade. I think itā€™s because of the healing side that drive that decision but thatā€™s beside the point. The reality is that I think the talent tree system was built up in mind to only have a choice between 2 spells. I donā€™t think itā€™s built in mind to work with a 3 spell choice node. If they decide to add a 3rd choice technology into the talent tree system, it would throw so many things into question across the board on all talent trees. I think that is a can of worms that they would rather not explore and I donā€™t see the Priest application as enough reason to traverse down that road just yet.

So until I see evidence that they will entertain a 3rd talent choice, I refuse to put forth ideas assuming that is even possible let alone a viable path forward.

That is why I am relegating my feedback to be within the realms of reason and reality as Iā€™m not about to wish for something that may not even be possible or if it is, not likely as itā€™s gated not behind design decisions but mechanical engineering limitations instead.

Regarding the adding damage to talents aspectā€¦ this is a difference of opinion.

I donā€™t think every talent needs to have direct damage enhancements incorporated within itself. I think that is boring and too much related to the old talent system prior to MoP.

I am more of a fan of talents that add extra interactions to your spec/class.

I want to avoid the conduit system in Shadowlands where you get random procs for damage you canā€™t control or passive damage increase.

I prefer talents that change up your rotational gameplay or make things more fluid where you know when you pick X talent, you must do X or you get X consistently because of that talent.

But again, that is a difference of opinion on that front. So you do what you like and I will do what I like and we shall see what direction blizzard takes going into TWW.

60

looks down

Are you hiding under a bridge and coming out to pester people and adding nothing to the conversation? It sure does appear that way.

You know, there is a similar creature that fits that description as wellā€¦ just canā€™t put my finger on it.