In a wow context? Tournaments are esports.
As for physical sports? There are no rewards.
Playing one basketball game, doesn’t mean I get an insurmountable advantage in the next basketball game.
Are you aware there is more than one diablo?
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There is between the different difficulties.
We all play the same WoW. Just different difficulties for different rewards
Yeah, of course. The post I was responding to specifically mentioned Diablo though.
I would’ve thought by using Diablo, people were referring to diablo 2 or 3 or 4. Not one which is so old and didn’t really gain that much traction.
It’s also a franchise name.
I just assumed he said what he meant.
Look you two, semantic circle 
ing aside, blizzard killed raiding for people like me. They (and you) can say it’s not important or good riddance or whatever, but you know what they say.
“… and when they came for me, there was no one”
But nothing fundamentally changed?
Old raiding was just as hard at the top. And many servers didn’t do H LK 25 until Cataclysm.
Sure maybe you play with less skilled players now, but that’s your environment changing, not the game.
Speaking of: your character doesn’t have H LK 25 achievement.
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I disagree. It wasn’t much harder than showing up. We were a server first guild, too, with clickers and purists who refused to use addons. Skill is baseline for mythic. You can’t kill one mythic boss without the requisite level of skill. Killing the last requires an organization. That’s the part that people don’t like.
Yeah I know. I played DK in that expansion. I’m also missing many PvP achievements from around that time, as well as the scourgebane transmog. Blizzard support told me it was tough luck. I had to get my account restored at one point because it was hacked while I was in BCT, I just always assumed it was related.
I led a guild in wrath, Sindragosa Normal 10 man was too hard -_-
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Blizzard balanced in mind of what players could do back then. I doubt you had that many terrible players compared to the average who killed the harder bosses. They’ve ramped up the difficulty but players also got better. It wouldn’t make sense for them to make the hardest difficulty much easier when players have stepped up.
I think it’s good to have the challenge. Where they goofed was locking character progression behind it. Gaming organizations aren’t a bad thing alone.
They hit the nail on the head with Keys. You can get all you can get from 10’s, but all the competition is way above that. Mythic raid should probably follow suite, I think. Everyone wins. Unless you just want to make sure people Know Their Place, then I guess it’s a loss, but people like that can kick rocks, ya know?
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But that’s always been the case?
Atiesh came from Naxx that very few saw.
No, not everyone wins.
I like having rewards if rewards were to exist.
Remove gear if it’s going to be function of grinding.
RNG for gear isn’t skill.
On the contrary this is a pretty fun part of the game for me.
Mostly because M+ is a compromise on the accessibility of raid gear. It was made in mind to make this much easier, but even then when it’s tuned better like this season then a lot of people dislike it. Moreover, M+ simply can’t scale rewards much higher when it needs to be capped with the vault as more mythic track gear from that content would make raiding less relevant and they want you to do both content. The difference is still not high as M+ players can get full mythic track by the end of a season and I would even argue the difference should be a bit higher as I think raids should drop way more loot.
Nothing wrong about players playing the content that is made for them. The same way I’m pretty happy delves have its playerbase and it shouldn’t target players that push mythic raiding. If you like heroic raiding and prefer its tuning then do heroic raids. But asking mythic raids to be tuned like them or give the same level of rewards is not the same.
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Everyone already has “access” to BIS gear. There is nothing that prohibits anyone from getting it.
If skill is disconnected from BIS gear farming, it means only time and luck would be required. Basically, WOW would become Diablo. Only people who can farm endlessly would have BIS gear.
Even in its most accessible form, like only some 30% even make it to mythic track in m+.
The point being, that players with little to no gear are pushing content that regular players will never reach in the first place within days of content release because of Blizz’s overemphasizing skill in progression.
And the over emphasis on skill vs. gear has created a line that prevents a majority(?) of the player base from reaching real BiS…whether it is M+ or Mythic raiding
the issue with this discussion, as it pertains to raid at least, is that, unlike mythic+, difficulty isnt the only hurdle. In fact, i would argue that difficulty isnt even the main hurdle in mythic raiding. bleeding edge, hof, thats a different animal altogether. but regular old mythic raiding or later ce it isnt so much difficulty as it is other factors that have nothing to do with difficulty. things like the roster boss, recruiting, finding 19 other people that can get along, finding decent leadership, the time commitment nature of raiding that doesnt exist in mythic+, etc. the content itself is really not that difficult. in this context, i define difficulty by actions per minute, throughput requirement, and percentage of kit required to be used
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My point is that Blizzard doesn’t care.
Infact they’re banking on the imbalance to keep people playing, regardless of if they think there’s a divide that exists or not.
Well, 100% of the players have access to the best gear for the content they do. I don’t know what more you would want.
To add to this. I do think the BiS items should come from the content. Meaning, I should not have to do M+ to get BiS trinkets or weapons for raiding. My BiS slot PvP gear should not come from raiding.
Why does gear have to be segregated anyway? I think the Great Vault should provide a chance at any gear, regardless of the content.
It’s how Blizzard does RPGs.
Many other RPGs, particularly story-driven ones, gear & power progression has surprisingly little value.
Does it exist? Yes, it does…but it’s rarely a driving force for players. It’s just there, fulfilling a largely functional role. It only really gets noticed when there’s suddenly an obstacle and difficulty spike, and usually it can be resolved by playing a bit smarter instead of grinding out a few levels.
… huh, “grinding out a few levels”.
I think that probably explains more about how different WoW approaches the RPG formula in general. Most RPGs are approached with an intended character level of each key point through the game, and you’re given the option to go below that if you want a greater challenge or exceed it if you want an easier one. If you’re struggling with anything, one option that’s always there is “grind more levels” and make it easier for yourself.
But WoW is built more like climbing a ladder, with each step of advancement being more of a “reward” for accomplishing a task rather than a tool to help with doing so… no wonder it’s frustrating, when the tools for advancement are withheld because they’ve been turned into trophies. Many RPGs, since before WoW was even a thing, actually give “tokens” for beating the hardest bosses rather than the best weapons/armor/items in the game; because there was nothing else to use it on.
You’ve beaten the hardest boss! … so what use is the strongest weapon, now that you’ve beaten it? You don’t need it anymore. It’s just a trophy at that point… would have been a lot more useful BEFORE beating that boss, come to think of it.