Turning this game into one where you can swap class /specs at will has its own appeal. No longer needing to worry about class composition issues (cause theoretically, everyone can play everything.) No need for gearing a character to be useful.
yea there would definitely have to be some wrinkles ironed out for sure with the 3 pillars.
i think the easiest solution (as someone that has been raiding since the release of this game and currently) is that they should all be separate.
- delve gear max ilvl would only be max in delves and everything else but scale down in m+ and raids.
- m+ gear max ilvl would only be max ilvl in m+ and everything else but scale down in delves and raid.
- raid gear max ilvl would only be max ilvl in raid and everything else but scale down in m+ and delves.
ultimately having a need for 3 gear sets (only if you do all 3 types of content) but then hey, that would really be great for a gear addition to the player housing feature with a wardrobe function.
i dunno. but i feel that it would work. it would also relieve pressure from those that only M+ but gotta raid for the best trinkets and vice versa, relieve pressure from those that only like raiding but got to m+ to get that ilvl bloated for raid progression.
We’ve segregated pvp gear before, it’s not anything new.
I think at that point you really are just better off scrapping gear completely. Comparison is the thief of joy, so remove the criteria by which people compare.
well i have these personal opinions because since the games release i would raid and work and enjoy time with my family.
since the introduction of m+, now i m+ until my head hits the keyboard (more or less) to keep my toon a well oiled machine so that i dont hold back our guild raid progression. ultimately making me feel forced into m+, when i dont really want to. separating the gear would make for a much better experience for all.
and for those that like both, nothing changes. at all.
Doesn’t this contradict your stance here?
At this point, I want blizzard to do whatever keeps people playing.
Gatekeeping gear may or may not be working, I do not know.
It’s worth noting I think my general lack of distaste for mythic+ despite being in the same position as you is how my guild approaches it. We raid our usual raid nights but have maybe an hour after each where the guild tanks and healers are mostly around for keys. We only require 4 a week which can be comfortably done in that time and feels like an extension of raiding more than anything else, especially because it means early on every item / resource acquired by doing it feels like it’s going towards progression.
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Everyone should be able to get BiS.
God, it’s a MMORPG, it should not be a elitist sweaty edgelord game.
IF you want competitiveness and e-sports, base it on skill and difficulty, without locking gear away from others who aren’t elitists.
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What point is there in having difficulty if youre just giving everyone the best gear anyway?
Pretty much saying lock the game at normal dungeons and LFR level difficulty while giving out mythic raid level gear.
No point in difficulty nor gear at this point
yea so many people that raid are in the same boat as us.
except for me i pug all my m+ runs. i dont have time to “schedule” for M+. i have an organized life of family, work, leisure time, wow/raiding. the average m+ run of a 8-12 takes around 25-45mins group depending. and to run 8 of those per week to have a decent chance at an upgrade to keep my toon greased and oiled for raiding will take 4+ hours of scheduled time. and that is not counting leavers and failed runs. so i just pug. but i dont want to m+ lol.
anyway, a separate gear pillar within these 2 end game pillars would make the game better for so many people.
and again, for those players that do both raid and m+, nothing changes for them, at all.
additional thought - to add to this. as a mount and achievement point collector, i would still M+. but i wouldnt feel forced to do it. and i can do it when i want rather than right away, rush rush rush for that gear for raid progression. we could do it on the down time without worrying about vault etc… and just slowly get the mount and ksh / portals.
it would be better on so many levels for everyone.
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Because you’re not looking at it as an almost full rework of the gearing system.
The idea is that gear past a certain level (for example I’d say 80 if the next expansion was where the gear cap was being added into the game), would no longer increase in power or level requirement to equip and can come from any source. So, any level 80 character starting the next expansion would have the same ilvl within a reasonable amount of time and from doing whatever content they want. All players would have to worry about is things like is it a green/blue/purple, getting good enchants, sockets and gems, etc (because gear should matter to some extent and have a bit of customization to keep the essence of an RPG). But the power gap wouldn’t be nearly as extreme even if they don’t have the best of those things as soon as another player and more content would be open to more players… and truly make things more about skill than gear (which is one of the biggest complaints many people who played this game and quit for a different MMO have about it, especially since it’s even a tab target combat system).
And I’m not going to bother fully going into other MMOs endgame progression systems because I’ve already explained way more on this than I ever thought I would have to and now ignoring this thread to avoid talking in circles, haha.
(Oh, and obviously heroic would still have it’s own rewards. Players who don’t like to look for PUGs or play in guilds would queue for heroics still as well, even new ones who may be trying to learn and adjust to the game. Designing the game around what only endgame progression guilds do isn’t right to begin with anyway, and even if a group of guildies jumped straight to mythic, that’s their business.)
That’s exactly why they should separate E-Sports from MMORPGs.
Players, from the most casual to the most hardcore, should be able to engage in all types of content without any “wallblock” caused by competitiveness.
Delves, so far, has been one of the best features added to the game because it allows players to chase their BiS (or some of it) without having to deal with the “segregation” that this kind of elitist mentality promotes against casuals and non-elitists.
I insist that part of WoW’s PvE E-Sport scene—since it unfortunately exists—should not be influenced by gear, but rather by the difficulty of the runs, team composition, and player skill in handling M+ mechanics. Want to outperform your friend? Finish the dungeon faster than them, without dying.
But without disrupting the progress of those who want to enjoy the game as an MMORPG, improving their characters as much as they can, rather than as a competitive E-Sport.
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So the current catchup system with a bit less gear?
Have you considered playing Diablo 4?
How that is your reply to what they said is really baffling… but anyway, haha. Let me get to avoiding circles for real this time.
BiS? Those that can clear CE.
99% bis? Anyone who can farm 10s I guess. That’s basically the system we have now.
Diablo 4 allows plenty of character progression (bis) and is solo.
Just paly that?
Yeah I mean that’s why we do it the way we do, 4~ dungeons a week with people you know where nothing is going to waste on days you already allot time for playing. 8 for vault honestly feels like overkill even at our rank.
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Gear being a reward is the problem. It creates this weird hierarchy (why do mythic raiders care what gear i have?) And it is an illogical system. Youre more skilled so you get better gear to make things easier?
PVP got it right in DF. Two tiers of gear. Better players can gear faster. But in the end it all stabalizes and we have the same power level. Which allows skill to express itself more boldly.
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Sorry, but I think you misunderstood or misinterpreted what I meant.
I didn’t say that Delves was a good addition because it’s predominantly solo content, but because it allows players to avoid dealing with elitism (and the toxicity that comes with it).
Following the logic you implied in your comment, it would be the same as telling people who dislike casuals having BiS because they’re not competitive or hardcore enough, to go play League of Legends, DOTA 2, etc., where everyone is competitive and, eventually, if they’re good enough, they can buy their character’s “BiS” and win the game. (Competitiveness, E-sports, hints of RPG with character progression (level and items)).
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