We need to have proper scaling of the valor point system in mythic+ in less than a week I am seeing flaws in this system. At first you think oh high io players want to get in on noob keys, this could be good for alts I was dead wrong in less than a day.
My experience as a tank is usually it’s easy to get into lower keys to build up experience, instead this week was decline after decline for the simplest of keys 2-6. I used my own key till I felt it got too high for my experience. Players booting me because a more stacked player queues up. High IO players griefing other peoples low ilvl, low io toons who obviously are not where they are yet just for not being min/maxed.
I have not seen this much toxicity in such a short amount of time and I tanked 15-18 keys in BFA, on ocasion you would get a try hard griefer, but in this short amount of time this system is already bringing out the worst in people.
Solution, valor needs to scale to move the supposedly “Good” try hard player, back to their level of keys if what they really want is to be with players on their level, and keep the natural flow of progression upwards back to new players and alts.
I agree with OP. Though I’m one of the people using low keys to farm valor, it feels bad and like a waste of time.
If valor were to scale with key level it would incentivize myself and others that play at a higher level to continue doing keys at whatever level that toon is capable of, rather than looking for random +2’s in lfg to try and clear in ~10 mins.
Scaling valor would keep lower keys open to lower geared or experienced players, giving them a more true experience. In the long term this should help them progress into higher keys.
Ignoring the 1 year necro for a second. This is false. People will find the best valor to time ratio and farm there. There is a reason people farm torghast 9 when they are capable of 12-16. 9s take about 10m, offer no resistance and are guaranteed. 16s take around 30m, offer significant resistance and have the potential of failure.
While this may very well solve the problem for key levels 2-6 there will absolutely be a low key level where the grind will be most efficient. Maybe that’s 10, maybe it’s 15, but it will exist.
Valor should scale and items should be upgradable to 278 once you hit 2500 and 284 once you hit 3000.
Raids should have upgradable gear based on bosses killed on a difficulty (IE you killed a certain number of Mythic bosses so now you can upgrade your LFR piece to 284.)
I think this is a fair necro. The OP highlighted flaws in the valor system a year ago and the person who posted a year later is still feeling those. I guess a necro is appropriate sometimes!
Anyway, I actually think Valor is a great addition to the game and uncapping it was the right move. I do think that scaling it up would provide more incentive to run higher keys over lower keys, but I think that maybe the cost to upgrade lower ranks should be reduced to keep things relatively consistent.
Having a lot of players who want to run +2 to +5 keys really quickly for valor was super helpful for my alt, but I’m a 3k player and already know how to play. I’d imagine this is probably not a great environment for newer players or those who don’t have high rating. Hard carries like that aren’t a great environment to learn and soon you find yourself with an inflated rating and a key.
I know the game enough to know what key my characters are capable of, but this isn’t necessarily obvious to someone with less experience in M+. They aren’t likely to drop them and are probably going to have a bad time if they’re only experienced enough to run a +5 but now find themselves with a +15 key.
All that being said, we know M+ and gearing in general needs work. Blizzard has hinted at changes coming in the next expac. My hope is that they’re transparent with these changes, offering the community enough time to consider them, and they’re also thoughtful about them. A lot of feedback was given going into Shadowlands for various systems that was ultimately not taken into consideration until 9.1 at the earliest, if not later.
I don’t think another round of systems shoved in our faces with the players being told it’s what they want until Blizzard ultimately realizes it’s not what they want and changes things will do much good for the game at this point.
I haven’t raided, but what would you think the first wing of Mythic Raid would equate to in M+? Might be even lower now because they keep hitting it with the nerf sledge hammer.
Right, so I would have no issue with people regularly accessing 284 gear having an opportunity to fill in gaps with a M+ upgrade.
I will admit this is hard to quantify because there are so many variables that make raiding and M+ fundamentally different. I would probably guess somewhere in the 2800-3k range. While the first 2 bosses aren’t very hard, the 3rd and 4th ramp up significantly. In all 4 cases, the individual responsibilities aren’t so bad, but mistakes from a single player can have severe consequences for the whole group. That obviously happens in M+ also, but can be much more easily controlled for in a group of 5 than a group of 20.
Conceding this is all subjective, my personal experience suggests that 2500 is just a bit easier than heroic, but generally comparable. I finished 3000 weeks ago, but only just killed the 4th mythic boss this week. If I raided as frequently as I did M+ while I was pushing, and with a stronger team, I suspect I would be further along, so I think 3k is compares well with the first half or so of mythic progress. I could try to look for the progress percentage of 4/11 and find the M+ score that matches that percentage to try for a slightly more objective comparison. Maybe I’ll look for that later today and see how my 2800-3k estimate holds up.
The nerfs coming I’m pretty sure are just from Lihuvim on, so that shouldn’t affect the first wing at all.
Though you aren’t wrong. There is also the possibility that in doing 20+ keys which I prefer, even though it may not be the most efficient in terms of time/valor, it would still have the potential to net high valor without me having to run content at a lower level than I would prefer.
Scaling valor would be nice but not having a valor cap at the start of a season would mean I would be able to use valor to upgrade non-bis items at the start of a season and have enough valor for bis when I get them. This would make it so I wouldn’t have to re-farm valor or wouldn’t avoid upgrading non-bis gear.
I have trouble equating the two. I actually think that if you can get to 3k on your own, without carries, you probably are capable of a Mythic Raid clear. By that point you know how to press your buttons, you’re well aware of what buttons you have, you know how to move out of the bad, and you know how to work with your team.
The only key difference is that you only have 5 people who need to know what they’re doing vs. 20 people who need to know what they’re doing. Right now that extra ilvl is a bonus for raid size and nothing more.
Going up past 3k doesn’t really do much except test your DPS. Most of the mechanics one-shot you in the +20 to +22 range so you either dodge them and/or use a defensive, or you don’t make it.
I guess another key difference is that Mythic Raids get a whole new set of fights to learn and perfect while M+ runs the same dungeons we’ve run all expac but with a new seasonal affix. I think Season 4 will shake this up though, and that’s going to be a really good thing!
Anyway, I think you can actually compare 3k to Mythic Raid and giving equivalent gear for clears at that range would probably be fine…
HOWEVER!
M+ is it’s own thing so who the heck cares about gear? Giving out higher gear in M+ would only serve to shift the ceiling a bit further… and what does that accomplish? There is no need for higher gear in M+, that’s the beauty of it. You cap out on gear and the rest of it becomes how well can you play and execute mechanics.
I would be happy if they just completely separated M+ and Raid gear entirely. Then maybe my guild would stop harassing the few of us who actually care about our rating for carries all season long >.<
I wholeheartedly disagree. 3k is the floor of key pushing (this season). 20s just don’t have any bite this season. 15-20 deaths in some keys is still a win because of the hyper inflated power.
None of this is true. Not until you get to 25+ does everyone have to be on the same page. The timers are just too lenient to force people to pull their head out of their rear or turn off Netflix on the second monitor.
This isn’t true either. I’d really like to see how your runs are going. Sure, some mechanics 1 shot some classes, by an large, you don’t need defensive rotations or avoidance and in a lot of cases you don’t need healer CDs or tank CDs. You may not be intending tk paint the white knuckle wall to wall action, but that’s the implication I get from your comment.
Dodging deadly thrust, as an example, is the bare minimum level of awareness. Not standing in the elder staghorns falling stars is another story altogether. 5 stacks of bolster or a raging fort 23 and now you actually do stand to be 1 shot.
This is incorrect. The only players who stand any chance of capping out gear are CE raiders. That’s why having a way to get 285 (at least in the slots available from the current raid) is important for m+. I’d be totally fine with the pvp gear solution. There are very few players who do super high level at all 3 end game progs and the argument about gear sets and bag bloat falls on deaf ears for me.
Scale the gear in dungeons. Make it like the 8.3 items that were zone specific. All fine with me. But requiring the amount of time required to get CE on fairly early clear and then also enough time to really learn dungeons to be even remotely competitive just ain’t it for me.
I don’t see much value in arguing this or the rest of your points. It’s one of those experience things and I just haven’t found much difference between the runs after +20. You do the right things or you get deaded. The only thing I agree with is the timers being lenient, absolutely, but fundamentally it’s till the same general thing.
I suppose in that CE can take that gear and push further in M+… which yea, that’s a bit silly.
What I’m getting at though is that it shouldn’t matter. There’s a gear ceiling and why M+ is good is that you push as far as you can when you’re no longer getting gear from it. It’s about skill, not out gearing the content.