You can’t out gear an infinitely scaling system. The end points for rewards are arbitrarily chosen (at best). If everyone was scaled down to 272, I’d take your point. They aren’t. This gives someone a very real advantage if they are CE, one that I’d like to see removed.
Fwiw, MDI has gear scaling so that every competitor is a specific ilvl to prevent advantages. You don’t get the Meta from who has the best end of raid drops for this reason. Same thing for AWC. Everyone is scaled tk the same ilvl, then and only then is it skill > all.
Yes, that’s what I’m saying, and that’s a good thing.
Except… there’s two caps right now. If you’re a M+ only player your cap is 272. If you Mythic Raid, it’s higher. The only thing that changes is how far you can push. It feels like you shouldn’t be able to get better gear from raids and go higher in M+, they should be their own thing. Still though, whatever the gear cap is, it’s generally unrelated to how far you can push.
I get Blizzard wants to promote playing different aspects of the game, and I think that’s not a bad thing… but M+, Raids, and PvP have all evolved into their own niches and it does seem a bit silly for the best gear for M+ to come from not doing M+. This could probably change down the line.
Whatever you feel about the breakpoint in rating for when a M+ player is capable of Mythic Raids, it’s kind of irrelevant. The only difference is how many people are in your group and it doesn’t make sense to dictate power rewards in one over the other based on that.
That wasn’t the point. We were specifically discussing when it would be appropriate for a m+ only player to be able to upgrade their existing gear to 285 with valor. I offered up 3600, which isn’t a self serving answer, cited the reasons I believe this is appropriate.
I didn’t say it was self-serving. You offered up 3600 and I said 3000 is probably fine. You disagree and that’s fine, but my point here is that it just shouldn’t matter. M+ is not really about gear at all, it’s just a thing that’s there until you hit a specific point, then to go further gear stops mattering.
It doesn’t matter what your ilvl is, the only complaint is that someone can get a higher ilvl than you can for M+. I’m saying that maybe this shouldn’t be the case. I don’t need Mythic Raid gear because I have no intention of Mythic Raiding. The current M+ only cap of 272 (275 w/ vault) is fine enough for me.
Objectively false and categorically uncharitable reading of the situation. I’m tired of m+ being the red headed step child of wow. I’m over the pvp vs pve when it should be raid vs m+ vs pvp.
I could not care less about what other players have or don’t have. I care that I’m being knee capped for not raiding. Get it straight.
You really look at Cinderella at the beginning of the tail and say, why are you angry, you have clothes and food who cares if your step sisters have better clothes and food then you. That you’re treated unfairly for no reason.
I’ve done keys at 23 on 2 separate tanks. 1 is aggressively easier. I think that being able to time a couple 20s and some 19s isn’t a mark at which you’ve accomplished anything. You don’t give big pvp weapons for 1500. And 3k is m+ 1500.
I’m not sure how you read my post as me saying M+ should be a lesser aspect of WoW, but boy are you sure ready to throw out some strong, emphatic words to decry my point of view, lol.
Maybe re-read it again? Raid gear shouldn’t be the best for M+, but M+ gear shouldn’t be best for raiding either.
However…
Whether the gear cap is 272, 275, or 285, it does not matter. There will always be a gear cap, and high key levels (especially those you want to play) are not going to rewards you gear. You hit whatever cap exists and then you just do more gooder. Who who gives a crap what that cap is? They could set the cap at ilvl 200 for all I care and it wouldn’t change my enjoyment of M+. All the fun happens long after runs stop dropping useful gear, and that’s a good thing!
Good for you I guess, but if you think 1500 pvp rating is equivalent to 3k M+ you’re nuts. Unless things have drastically changed since BfA with regards to rating, you show up and you can get to 1500/1600 fairly easily. It’s a bit more work to get to 1850, but you can’t really compare the two.
And also… again, who gives a crap? PvP is now nicely separate from PvE. You get your rewards but they’re only really great for PvP. It has no impact on anything else.
Which is wholly unobtainable in m+. That’s my entire point. If raid gear was scaled down in dungeons or there was some method to obtain gear cap in dungeons, I could agree with you. As it stands, I can’t because it doesn’t exist.
If it were up to me, the tournament realm would be available for play for everyone and people who despise the gear treadmill (like I do) could just test themselves against the content. What you’re describing of having only a skill barrier is my ideal, but that’s not how it is right now and you have to be high to think it is.
The issue isn’t that the cap exists, it’s that it’s unobtainable. Ailvl 282/3 is the gear cap right now. You can say the gear cap doesn’t matter, which is true, provided it’s equally obtainable in your content. I wonder if you’d be this adamant if arena guys had to do mythic raids for their best gear.
They have.
And in this season enough has changed about 20s that if you want to do them, you can easily. In BFA 20s could random 1 shot players who messed up, now, if you have over 72k hp as a dps, you can stand in most things. Things have to go incredibly wrong to not time a 20. Nvm that 20s aren’t even required for 3k. I hit 3k recently with a 0 and a 6 as 2 of my keys.
This season, 6.2% of the key runner (not pushers) have 3k. Last season 21s was enough to get you in the top 1%. It’s all by virtue of their being a reward at 3k. Meanwhile, I have to keep reminding my healer friend that 3k isn’t a big deal because their are a ton of people there now that we’re clearly carried to it. And anything you can be carried to (easily in pugs) shouldn’t provide the optimal rewards. I’ll stand by that.
Just like everything else, irl and in game, it’ll stop matter Ing when it’s equal.
M+ doesn’t award raid gear either. You’re saying it should, I’m saying gear should scale down to the M+ cap. We’re both arguing for the same ends, advocating for an idea that doesn’t exist yet.
I’m not sure how you don’t see that it is effectively like this right now once you achieve whatever gear cap is available to you. Either you Mythic Raid or you don’t.
If you don’t, your gear cap is 272, at which point you stop being able to upgrade your gear and now you pray to RNJesus that your weekly box rewards you to edge you closer to 278. Note, I said 275 before, I was mistaken. This is as far as you go and any progress you make in M+ you do so based solely on skill.
If you do Mythic Raid, lets just say your gear cap is 285. It’s technically not because there’s only a few bosses that drop that ilvl and I suspect not all slots are covered but screw it, it doesn’t matter, lets be generous. Your gear cap is 285 at which point there’s no higher gear in the game. You now progress based solely on skill in M+.
If you Mythic Raid your gear cap is higher than someone who only does M+, and I think it’s safe to say that we both agree that this isn’t a good thing, but the outcome is 100% the same. Assuming we’re both equally skilled and in equally skilled groups with equivalent class makeups, the Mythic Raider group will progress further (which again, isn’t ok), but both groups are doing so based solely on skill.
Whatever your cap, once you get there, that’s it. This happens now. Where that cap is depends on what content you want to do but it’s there.
I’m really not sure where you’re getting this from. It’s a terrible idea for PvP players to have to do Mythic Raids to get the best gear for PvP just like it’s a terrible idea for M+ players to have to do Mythic Raids to get the best gear for M+.
I’m running out of different ways to express the same idea…
That was in regards to PvP rating and everything you said after this was about M+ rating. I know that 3k is easier this season than it was last season, no argument, but you equated it to 1500 PvP rating which is excessive.
Also what do you mean it’s all by virtue of there being a reward at 3k? The only reward is a title, not gear.
I don’t think 3k is as trivial as you’re suggesting. I worked for 3k with my team and I’m proud of that. Yes it’s easier than last season and yes it’s even easier now after those nerfs, but it was still a challenge and I enjoyed it. I don’t need any gear rewards for it either, the title was enough.
Conduits. There’s power attached to 3k. I’m aware that some classes have minute power from conduits, but others have huge amounts of power through conduits. Never underestimate the reward of an exclusive title or achievement. There was neither last season. Which made it “not worth it” for some who could have easily done it.
This is entirely bias. Because you “worked for it” it’s not trivial. People work for the 1% mounts, obtaining them is still trivial. Effort is not linked to whether it’s trivial. The baseline is having to work for it. I’m sure you’re just a few small tweaks from doing 22s, if you aren’t already (of course there are some who are too stubborn to tweak anything, this may or may not describe you or your group). 22s more accurately represent the gameplay you think 20s require, though not entirely. The score for 22s is something like 3250.
To go past 24s you need avoidance tertiaries (in some keys on some classes). When you get to 28-29 you need to have the best available gear with tertiaries to stand a chance of surviving a lot of things. The notion that gear is irrelevant is nonsense, but again, I don’t care what the cap is as long as it’s obtainable through the content.
You know, I forgot about conduits. That’s fair. I don’t think it’s a big power gain but it’s there nonetheless. I didn’t do it for the conduits but it’s fair to say that some did. I thought there actually was a title last season but I don’t recall.
I would buy that more people will go after 3k because of this, but I don’t think that means it’s easier. It is easier than last season because of set bonuses and the second legendary, but not trivial…
I’m not going through the rest because we’re just going to go back and forth about whether or not +20 is trivial or challenging, dancing around whatever binary line in the sand you’ve decided is now acceptable for differentiating good from bad. It’s irrelevant because M+ shouldn’t be about gear and once you hit whatever cap is accessible to you, it’s not.
So when you say…
… I’m 100% on board with this. I just think it’s better to keep Mythic Raid gear out of M+ entirely because I’m just not super interested in a never ending gear grind like Diablo 3. It’s more interesting to me to learn to play better and chase a title than it is to chase an upgrade that will let me push further so that I can get another upgrade that will let me push further and so on…
I think it’s safe to say that those statistics right there are enough to say that referring to the content as trivial is a bit off. It’s easier to say that KSM this season with something like 21% of people running keys have it, but saying something that only the top 6.2% is trivial just seems a bit off to me. I always considered myself average at best and when I figured out I was in the top 10% of the leaderboards, I felt pretty good about it. 3k is a reasonable goal for people to try and achieve and feel good about I think. If you’re after the title (I think last I checked it would take closer to 3.6k), that’s an exceptional achievement. I just don’t think being that high in the content of your choice should be downplayed quite so much. I would agree that 20’s this season feels a lot more akin to 15’s did in previous seasons, but I’d say that KSM the last 2 seasons felt about as relevant as KSH does this season as well.
I also think that 3.6k is too high if they were to give us further upgrading, but I don’t think you are as far off as Tubbly would suggest. It would probably be easier to just compare the % of the playerbase who have obtained CE versus the level of score for a new achievement (or even moving KSH to that particular rating). We don’t need m+ being an alternate route to 285’s, we just want something to compete. In the same vein, when power level is as high as what we have right now, I wouldn’t be opposed to upgrading our gear moved to 2500 over 2k how it is now or even maxing out gear being tied to 20’s instead of 15’s. I just know that not all seasons we’ll be this bloated. It definitely should be attainable.
The system is exponential, not linear. 20 isn’t hard, but it is a flex point where things start becoming hard.
That said, I’m perfectly fine with 3k to upgrade 278s from valor. It’s 285, I’m suggesting it’s an exceptional goal. Something nearly no one has access to. Again, I’d take zone scaled gear as well. I’m not looking for superiority, just equality.
This is a hardcore necro thread, but I’ll throw my two cents in. The only reason I even play the game is because of craftable tier sets and valor point upgrades to gear.
If I didn’t have the ability to grind valor for my gear, I wouldn’t play. The loot system is wayyy too unforgiving, doing 25 keys to get a single drop is illogical, and the valor system /kinda/ makes up for it?