RIP Forsaken (SPOILERS)

[Pyrogar-proudmoore (Pyrogar)]

@Lystera-jubeithos

Yea, and what Tyrande and the Night Elves suffered through in BfA was to appease the Horde fans only.

Cuz Horde players were just clamoring to have a storyline involving them eating the villain bat yet again just make the Night Elves suffer, right?

@Lystera-jubeithos

He was allied with the Horde, but he didn’t want to join.

Where does it at all state he didn’t wish to join?

@Lystera-jubeithos

It doesn’t matter if their major characters are intact when their entire population is dead, also it’s not looking good for Tyrande.

They got enough of a population to still be well able to hold their own and even defeat the Horde and drive them from Darkshore. Again mostly through their own power with some minor Gilnean assistence.

@Lystera-jubeithos

You’d lose 3 zones (2 permanently)

2 permanently? You lost Teldrassil, what’s the second one?

@Lystera-jubeithos

would have an entire race wiped out besides their leaders

An entire race that can very easily be replaced whenever the plot needs them to.

@Lystera-jubeithos

then have their leaders look like a joke

Tyrande and Malf absolutely plowing through Horde forces in Darkshore is a “joke”? Or how about, oh Idk, WINNING the overall battle?!

@Lystera-jubeithos

while those that commited and planned the attack would get cinematic after cinematic and never lose

Riiight, cuz Saurfang getting his butt kicked at the BFL, being branded a traitor to the Horde for 80% of the expansion, and eventually dying in the end leaving Sylvanas and Nathanos to escape from the Horde to inevitably be slain is “not losing”.

@Lystera-jubeithos

basically denying you your justice.

Again, WHAT “justice”?! Is the Horde to lay down its’ arms and offer you sacrifices of innocents so that you’re “even”.

@Lystera-jubeithos

You are complaining about the tiniest bit of justice the Alliance can get.

Because unanimously defeating the Horde apparently doesn’t constitute as “justice” enough.

@Lystera-jubeithos

Killing Nathanos so he can be in the maw again with Sylvanas?

You seem very sure of this even though we’ve not once had anything on Nathanos datamined outside the disguise you wear during a play in the Ardenweald campaign.

@Lystera-jubeithos

Including Tyrande in Shadowlands?

Did I say that? You’re very much trying to change the context of what my initial message is, and that’s not cool.

@Lystera-jubeithos

Letting the Horde lose any battle ever?

Again, cuz the FOUR battles that the Horde lost in BfA apparently doesn’t count…

[Zega-black-dragonflight (Zega)]

All I can really say is, blizzard please don’t take Nathanos away from the forsaken anymore, just have him give up on Sylvanas like we all assumed he might do with his misgivings with her strategic plays.

Have him lead the forsaken and just keep Voss and calia as advisors (I honestly wouldn’t mind at that point about calia and Voss being in leadership positions)

I don’t like the thought of the forsaken just losing what feels like everything they once had for stupid villain batting, and big shock plays, like come on you should know making the most morally grey people in the horde go villain isn’t super shocking, it be more shocking to see a good character do dark things for the right reasons.

It really feels like we’re being kicked in the chest repeatedly for no reason, it doesn’t help when the story doesn’t even acknowledge what we’ve lost like how the night elf’s get focus or constant reminders of all they’ve lost.

I’m honestly starting to think wallowing in fear hoping blizzard doesn’t mess with one of your favorite races isn’t the option and we should instead make a huge fuss so blizzard sees not to go a certain path when developing characters/ races/ factions

[Lystera-jubeithos]

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

I’ve only wanted to see night elves kick rocks after BFA, and entirely because Blizzard keeps wanting me to feel bad, and night elf players on the forums are some of the greediest people ever.

Yea, wanting some closure after their race has been annihilated makes them greedy. I think you’re just being a massive jerk that wants to deny them the tiniest bit of justice they could get, just like many others in this thread.

@Pyrogar-proudmoore

Cuz Horde players were just clamoring to have a storyline involving them eating the villain bat yet again just make the Night Elves suffer, right?

Again, BfA was made to be as bad as possible for Night Elf fans and to reduce the damage done to the Horde as much as possible. The Horde lost NOTHING but a capital city in BfA.

@Pyrogar-proudmoore

They got enough of a population to still be well able to hold their own and even defeat the Horde and drive them from Darkshore.

Getting Darkshore back hardly matters when it’s all destroyed and their people dead.

@Pyrogar-proudmoore

2 permanently? You lost Teldrassil, what’s the second one?

Ashenvale, I guess you can count Darkshore as in Night Elf hands again even though they never bothered to state it ingame.

@Pyrogar-proudmoore

An entire race that can very easily be replaced whenever the plot needs them to.

The “plot” needs them to suffer even more tragedy apparently, and so do you.

@Pyrogar-proudmoore

Or how about, oh Idk, WINNING the overall battle?!

Which never happened by the way. It was stated in a blizzcon Q&A, imagine that. The Horde got beautiful cgi cinematics, cutscenes and questlines where they got to live out their power fantasies and annihilate the Night Elves.

@Pyrogar-proudmoore

Riiight, cuz Saurfang getting his butt kicked at the BFL, being branded a traitor to the Horde for 80% of the expansion, and eventually dying in the end leaving Sylvanas and Nathanos to escape from the Horde to inevitably be slain is “not losing”.

Saurfang got his honorable death he wanted and Sylvanas and Nathanos got away unscarred, even if Nathanos dies in the pre patch he’ll still be united with Sylvanas in the maw again, you are just complaining for the sake of being a jerk to wards Alliance fans.

@Pyrogar-proudmoore

Again, WHAT “justice”?!

How about war criminals? No that would be unacceptable for you of course, just like it’s unacceptable for Tyrande to be in Shadowlands

@Pyrogar-proudmoore

Because unanimously defeating the Horde apparently doesn’t constitute as “justice” enough.

When did that happen? Not in BfA for sure.

@Pyrogar-proudmoore

You seem very sure of this even though we’ve not once had anything on Nathanos datamined outside the disguise you wear during a play in the Ardenweald campaign.

It’s basic thinking. Sylvanas is waiting for Nathanos down there.

@Pyrogar-proudmoore

Did I say that? You’re very much trying to change the context of what my initial message is, and that’s not cool.

Even if you didn’t, many others did and that’s my point.

@Pyrogar-proudmoore

Again, cuz the FOUR battles that the Horde lost in BfA apparently doesn’t count…

And still ended up just fine, can you say the same about the Night Elves ?

@Zega-black-dragonflight

All I can really say is, blizzard please don’t take Nathanos away from the forsaken anymore

Yea, let’s not take away a single thing from the Horde after the Horde has taken out an entire race from the Alliance

Not selfish at all, aren’t we

[Cailias-wyrmrest-accord (Cailias)]

@Lystera-jubeithos

after the Horde has taken out an entire race from the Alliance

What are you talking about I made a Night Elf literally like 30 minutes ago bro

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

@Lystera-jubeithos

Yea, wanting some closure after their race has been annihilated makes them greedy.

Specifically they want us to party with Tyrande and constantly get bemoaned, have us lose more hero characters, more cities, more battles, more everything. It’s never enough. It will never be enough.

@Lystera-jubeithos

Yea, let’s not take away a single thing from the Horde after the Horde has taken out an entire race from the Alliance

Liar.

[Benedikt-emerald-dream]

I’m of course deeply worried about my beloved deadbois.

Legion was really promising. The Forsaken run the Horde part of Dalaran, get the plot’s first justified defensive use of Blight against the Alliance in Stormheim, Slyvanas seemed actually morally gray (she saves Varian’s life), and many of the class halls prominently featured well characterized undead in major roles.

Then everything from BTS onward has been at best dissapointing. I really enjoyed SR, but Voss coming in like a bamf at the start only to do absolutely nothing for the rest of the story was a real letdown.

Shadowlands should be a huge Forsaken centric expansion. Many of the Forsaken have been there already. Presumably they bonked their head and forgot about it when the valkyries beamed them up but seeing it again might jog some memories. And as Slyvanas is going to be a huge player youd think they’d have to be involved. I hope her abused ‘bulwark against the infinite’ crushes her in the end.

But, the only character more relevant to the Forsaken than Slyvanas was of course Arthas. And while the Forsaken did get some cool bits in early Wrath, they got villain batted at the Wrathgate, and then Slyvanas fails to even land a blow on Arthas in the Halls of Reflection.

The only undead present in an ICC fight is an Argent Crusader who gets killed and raised again as servant of the Scourge. Perhaps the cruelest fate ever visited on an NPC and it’s played for comedy. You’d think it would’ve been Slyvanas instead of Garrosh in there for Christ’s sake. The greatest victims of the Lich King don’t get any canonical presence in his downfall.

So, I’m not exactly hopeful. But hey, at lesst we’re getting some customization options I’ve wanted forever so - got that going for us.

[Zega-black-dragonflight (Zega)]

@Lystera-jubeithos

Yea, let’s not take away a single thing from the Horde after the Horde has taken out an entire race from the Alliance

Not selfish at all, aren’t we

I don’t recall saying you couldn’t take something from the horde but, many of us would prefer if something had to be taken it’s not something that’s going to hurt the fans or damage them beyond recognition, but I guess that’s where we hit the inpass where you want a blow on us to hurt but the things we have left if taken away will hurt us too much.l currently.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

@Benedikt-emerald-dream

Shadowlands should be a huge Forsaken centric expansion. Many of the Forsaken have been there already. Presumably they bonked their head and forgot about it when the valkyries beamed them up but seeing it again might jog some memories. And as Slyvanas is going to be a huge player youd think they’d have to be involved.

Unfortunately, Blizzard feels night elves deserve all attention at the detriment of canonicity and over half the playerbase.

[Vespero-durotan (Vespero)]

Not surprised to see him go. Surprised that him going is pre-patch content and not as some kinda raid boss.

@Pyrogar-proudmoore

well he was always a jerk

That was pretty much my experience.

Just because you thought he was cool doesn’t mean he wasn’t also a jerk.

[Noctii-sargeras (Noctii)]

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

Unfortunately, Blizzard feels night elves deserve all attention at the detriment of canonicity and over half the playerbase.

Ah yes, ‘‘all the attention’’ meaning one quest chain only available if you join the Night Fae covenant.

[Kazthan-argent-dawn]

@Lystera-jubeithos

Depends, many were really happy with Teldrassil it seems like, especially those that want to deny the Night Elves any sort of justice after, even if it’s the smallest things like killing Nathanos before he travels to the Shadowlands.

See: This entire thread.

It really seems we are reading different things.

[Lystera-jubeithos]

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

Specifically they want us to party with Tyrande and constantly get bemoaned, have us lose more hero characters, more cities, more battles, more everything. It’s never enough. It will never be enough.

Yea you haven’t lost anything yet while Night Elves have lost everything, a bit of fairness is always appropriate.

@Zega-black-dragonflight

I don’t recall saying you couldn’t take something from the horde but, many of us would prefer if something had to be taken it’s not something that’s going to hurt the fans or damage them beyond recognition

Like an entire race, for example? In the worst way possible too ?

@Kazthan-argent-dawn

It really seems we are reading different things.

I’m reading “We’re not accepting the Night Elves getting ANYTHING after Teldrassil so we will complain to get that reverted”.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

@Lystera-jubeithos

Yea you haven’t lost anything yet while Night Elves have lost everything, a bit of fairness is always appropriate.

I’ve already objectively proven night elves lost less than the forsaken alone. I didn’t even go into the other Horde races.

[Lystera-jubeithos]

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

I’ve already objectively proven night elves lost less than the forsaken alone.

Forsaken:

• 1 city

Night Elves:

• 1 city
• 3 zones
• their credibility and racial pride
• their entire population

So yea, forsaken lost more.

[Noctii-sargeras (Noctii)]

@Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord

objectively

lmao

Nothing you write has ever been objective.

[Zega-black-dragonflight (Zega)]

@Lystera-jubeithos

Like an entire race, for example? In the worst way possible too ?

I tend to think losing named developed characters is much worse than losing a bunch of nameless npcs, mainly due to the fact blizzard has never ever ever cared about population numbers for playable races, considering we see Blood elf’s, high elf’s, orcs, and humans, all over the place despite being in countless wars and “Realistically” should have no population or fighting power by now, he’ll the same could be said for npcs races also if we wanted.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

@Lystera-jubeithos

Forsaken:

• 1 city

• 1 zone
• 3 Hero Characters
• Their credbility and their racial pride.
• Their ABILITY TO PROCREATE

@Noctii-sargeras

Nothing you write has ever been objective.

ok female night elf hunter.

[Kazthan-argent-dawn]

@Lystera-jubeithos

Yea you haven’t lost anything yet

Ok, now you have to stop. Really.
(Edit: Not I don’t mean you can’t write. It’s a simple advise. Before people will say I am against free speech or some nonsense).

Yes Night Elves had a harsh time in WoW and their WC3 identity killed.

Going as far as to say the Forsaken lost nothing is just blatantly wrong and almost seems like you want to hurt the players for some weird reason.

Undercity was lost.
Sylvanas was butchered and lost.
Aspects of their culture were retconed and destroyed.
They can even fall apart now when they clap.
Even Calia is now forced upon them.

Yes the Forsaken lost quite a bit too.

[Dreadmoore-wyrmrest-accord (Dreadmoore)]

Night Elf Fans: bawwwww why didn’t tyrande kill belmont
Blizzard, sweating: ((they don’t realize the forsaken have no characters left))

[Benedikt-emerald-dream]

I don’t mind the Nelves getting screen time and honestly Tyrande can get the killing blow on Nathanos. Both in Azeroth and then she can go permanently delete the simping prick in the Shadowlands where he’s invariably going to be some boss. They’re frankly owed that much after the whole Night Warrior subplot was just embarassingly handled.

Blightcaller was kind of interesting in Classic as a end zone world boss the Horde could help defend. But, since then, he’s just been an aggro douche who’s dialogue could be replaced with recordings of a hissing goose and it’d change nothing narratively.

Sylvanas and Nathanos were obviously going to be bosses so, I’m not sure how this is shocking or disheartening to anyone.

Calia remains the only thing I’m actively worried about. She is just so antithetical to everything I find compelling about the Forsaken. They’ve had nothing but opportunities to introduce her in a way that’d change my opinion about everytime I see her it’s like they’re actively trying to make me hate her.

“A slight, blue-eyed undead woman ran breathlessly into the hold, her gaze flicking in every direction, her posture suggesting she was not at all sorry for their tardiness. Behind her, a ghostly pale woman, also undead, stood with far more poise. They could not have been any more different, the two ladies, one ravaged by her affliction to the bones, the other smooth and unblemished, glowing from within with an arresting light”

SR sums it up. Calia is tagged as undead, but is the polar opposite to the Forsaken. As her own thing, or merely a part of the Forsaken’s public relations team, I’m fine with her. But their threats, and they feel like threats, to make her their new leader shows a catastrophic misunderstanding of the faction that makes me extraordinarily worried.