Righteous Fury Mechanics == OP Paladin Threat (1k+ TPS)

[Autrwarrior-atiesh]

A good paladin can rip threat from a warrior when they want.

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

I’ll do it for him.

I appreciate it but I’ll say to you what I would say to him in calling out this:

56.65% Avoidance
57.46% DR from Armor
1 - 0.5746 = 0.4254
1 - 0.5665 = 0.4335
3,821 / 0.4254 / 0.4335 = 20,720

Mixing these two on an infinite time average is a quick and dirty method to be sure, but fundamentally they are different things and impact how Healers react to you very differently. Healer longevity right now isn’t really an issue so Avoidance’s ability to help folks catch-up and keep up with the incoming DTPS isn’t really critical. On the flip side, in Phase 3 we have Broodlord with his decently nasty Mortal Strike, which can critically strike. Having enough EH to soak the worst case scenario (melee crit and MS crit back to back) avoids that 1-2% chance of going splat. Avoidance here just doesn’t compare.

Its a nitpick, but a relevant one. When someone says “X takes less damage than Y” without qualifying whether they mean overall damage for the fight or just per-hit basis, it matters.

Also:

Phase 3 BiS Paladin Mitigation Gear
3,821 HP unbuffed
7,775 Armor
391 Defense

This is pathetic. Even with Holy Shield up, they’d still be subject to Critical Strikes and Crushing Blows, and they have less Health than a half-decently geared Druid does right now.

EDIT: Also Druids scale so much stronger with buffs than a Paladin or Warrior because of Heart of the Wild. I just don’t get why people push wild claims about parity that aren’t even close…

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

Allowing a Prot Paladin to tank is NOT a raid wide contagious STD that somehow reduces everyone’s DPS

Trust me, it is. More accurately, the “STD” is something that the people in charge of forming the raid already have, and it’s what allowed the Prot Paladin to be invited. The standards have to be lower to justify inviting a Prot Paladin. Due to those lower standards, worse DPS are able to get into the raid.

No raid invites a Prot Paladin without also being okay with everyone else playing sub-par specs or performally sub-optimally.

Just look at the logs of Prot Paladins versus the logs of Druids and Warriors. The average raid DPS is much lower in the raids with Prot Paladins.

So yes Lifetap is a DPS loss.

Yet it is a DPS gain over doing nothing.

Using Judgement of Wisdom so the Warlocks don’t have to use Life Tap is a really stupid decision.

But sure, that somehow makes Prot Paladins worth bringing, I guess. Somehow.

Aimed Shot is 3k+ mana per minute.

That doesn’t include twisting in other shots while AS is on cooldown.

Okay? Mana Potions + Dark Runes.

No one said the actual player difficulty increased.

You did, actually:

Suggesting that a 6k AC Warrior compared to a 10k Paladin with a shield, in no way increases difficulty, places additional burden or stress on healers, or reduces margin or error is factually inaccurate.

Considering the +spell crit levels of available Paladin gear in MC…and the dearth of +healing gear in MC, Paladins are best served by using HL/BoL crit mechanics.

BoL’s affect on HL and FoL is NOT linear…so once you break +20% crit, a Paladin is best served using downranked HL over FoL.

However what actual Rank of HL I then utilize depends on tank damage received.

The more tank damage taken the more I’m using Rank 6 over Rank 4 to maintain necessary HP/sec in combination with other healers.

That actually stresses my Mana Pool, Mana Regen, and overall endurance.

Overall endurance does not matter if you are not running out of mana.

As I have made clear numerous times, the healers are NOT running out of mana before the fight ends.

It can even require another tank healer added to a raid force in place of an additional DPS, especially when you have a Warrior not using a shield and intentionally sitting to be crit.

You don’t invite another healer, you just have another healer focus on the tanks.

This is pathetic. Even with Holy Shield up, they’d still be subject to Critical Strikes and Crushing Blows, and they have less Health than a half-decently geared Druid does right now .

You can get ~420 Defense if you gear specifically for it, but critical strikes (and crushing blows even moreso) are not really as dangerous as you’d expect.

You could focus more on stamina at the expense of avoidance, but you can already make up for the lower health by using defensive consumables instead of offensive ones (since the majority of their threat is not from actually attacking, so their buff slots are not taken up by the same kinds of buffs a Druid or Warrior would want, e.g. Mongoose).

[Brewbeard-grobbulus]

No raid invites a Prot Paladin without also being okay with everyone else playing sub-par specs or performally sub-optimally.

This is currently the state of the game. No one cares because no one has to. Many of us are revisiting a classic game we all played in the past for the fun of it. We’ve already been through the min/max ringer and now we can relax and do what we want without much consequence.

When you read those logs, what is your major issue with them? That they’re taking some minutes longer to finish or are you arguing that such a raid simply can’t clear current content?

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

No one cares because no one has to.

That’s fine. I’m not saying anyone has to.

When you read those logs, what is your major issue with them?

I have no major issue with the logs. I have an issue with the capabilities of a sup-par spec because I’m not content to only meet the bare minimum.

I, personally, am not satisfied with “good enough.” You’ll note that, throughout this thread, I’ve never once said that Paladins cannot tank, because obviously they can.

I have only argued that they are the worst of the three tank specs at doing it.

[Valarkin-pagle]

No raid invites a Prot Paladin without also being okay with everyone else playing sub-par specs or performally sub-optimally.

I raided as a Prot Paladin because our MT had work issues for a few months.

Tim was a Machinist Manager in CT, and one of their three floor areas was getting new equipment.

He had to be trained and certified on said equipment, so he could train others and pursuant to OSHA guidelines…as a result he couldn’t make our raids on time.

I had a full pre raid BiS. So as a Paladin I tanked, rather than try and temporarily recruit and gear a new MT from scratch.

No one else has their DPS drop in any way.

I wasn’t difficult to heal.

I had no issue with threat.

I replaced him until bugs in AQ40 during the first 90minutes of our raid because he had to be late.

Then it became a “Lets see if Val has issues tanking this boss?!”

I didn’t.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

I replaced him until bugs in AQ40 during the first 90minutes of our raid because he had to be late.

Cool story, but that wasn’t in Classic, so I don’t care.

[Brewbeard-grobbulus]

I have no major issue with the logs. I have an issue with the capabilities of a sup-par spec because I’m not content to only meet the bare minimum.

I, personally, am not satisfied with “good enough.” You’ll note that, throughout this thread, I’ve never once said that Paladins cannot tank, because obviously they can .

I have only argued that they are the worst of the three tank specs at doing it.

What I noticed was that, when I pointed out optimizing a raid for the maximum DPS was a subjective choice rather than being objectively “better,” you personally insulted my intelligence and violated the forum rules.

So you’re now you’re saying that if players want to prioritize different aspects of raiding than what you’re claiming is best, that’s ok with you? If that’s true, what are you hoping to accomplish by your participation in the thread?

Are you trying to “prove” that paladin tanking isn’t viable or isn’t optimal?

This thread is about viability, not optimal performance.

EDIT: Thread isn’t even about paladin tank viability since it’s about whether the Righteous Fury bug should left in the game. You’ve been making off-topic arguments for days now.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

What I noticed was that, when I pointed out optimizing a raid for the maximum DPS was a subjective choice rather than being objectively “better,”

Again, you have not been reading what I’ve been saying.

I’m going to say this one more time, and then I’ll ignore every continued attempt you make to misrepresent my arguments.

Warriors objectively deal more DPS than Paladins.
The value of that DPS is subjective.

If you can hold aggro with 1k TPS, TPS beyond 1k has objectively zero value.
DPS always has some value. That doesn’t mean it’s more valuable than EVERYTHING ELSE.
Something that has some value is objectively better than something with objectively zero value.

The only way you can argue otherwise is if you believe DPS has zero value. Do you really want to argue that point?

you personally insulted my intelligence and violated the forum rules.

No, I didn’t, which is why the reports were dismissed and my post was unhidden.

So you’re now you’re saying that if players want to prioritize different aspects of raiding than what you’re claiming is best, that’s ok with you?

Of course. It’s been that way from the very beginning. Read through the thread.

Are you trying to “prove” that paladin tanking isn’t viable or isn’t optimal?

I’ve never said they aren’t viable.

I suppose you could say I’m proving that it isn’t optimal, but everyone here knows that, I think.

You’ve been making off-topic arguments for days now.

“Paladins can deal TONS of threat because of this bug!”
“Okay, but they still have other issues.”
“THAT’S OFF-TOPIC!”

Are you sure? It’s about a bug that causes Righteous Fury to affect GBoK and allow for very high amounts of threat.

The implications of that are worth discussing, I’d say, and I felt it necessary to point out that doing high amounts of threat and being able to hold aggro doesn’t make Paladins good at tanking because there are numerous other aspects of tanking that they are weaker in.

If all you really want to discuss is “should the bug be left in the game,” why have you been arguing with me about anything other than that?

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

You can get ~420 Defense if you gear specifically for it, but critical strikes (and crushing blows even moreso) are not really as dangerous as you’d expect.

For Druids to be sure, but my specific example was Broodlord who has a notably slow and hard hitting attack speed and a nasty special that can Critically Strike.

You could focus more on stamina at the expense of avoidance, but you can already make up for the lower health by using defensive consumables instead of offensive ones (since the majority of their threat is not from actually attacking, so their buff slots are not taken up by the same kinds of buffs a Druid or Warrior would want, e.g. Mongoose).

Eh this is sorta moot in Classic where you aren’t limited by consumable slots really. If you want to stack several different elixirs, jujus, and a flask you can.

Allowing a Prot Paladin to tank is NOT a raid wide contagious STD that somehow reduces everyone’s DPS

The raid that freely allows a Protection Paladin also freely allows minimal/no consumable usage, PvP specs that just use baseline class abilities to push through, maintains subpar strategies, etc, etc. You can be hyperbolic all you like, but allowance for mediocrity is pervasive.

Paladin tanking is more than effective from a mitigation perspective.

No.

Paladin threat is more than effective until AQ40.

No.

You lose minimal DPS measured against raid wide values, that’s it.

Again with the allowances for mediocrity.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

Eh this is sorta moot in Classic where you aren’t limited by consumable slots really.

I am already at a point where I have to drop off defensive buffs.

I have currently dropped:
Blood Boil
Blessing of Sanctuary
Elixir of Fortitude
Rumsey Rum Black Label
5 Resists (to shoulders)
Power Word: Fortitude

If I don’t do that, a Renew/Regrowth/Rejuvenation/Inspiration will knock off world buffs.

[Fasciae-fairbanks]

5 Resists (to shoulders)

Wait… wut?

I thought they fixed passive stuff… also what is your total buff list that you’re dropping Fort?

[Theloras-herod]

If I don’t do that, a Renew/Regrowth/Rejuvenation/Inspiration will knock off world buffs.

for the love of elune don’t stack 3x Power Infusions and 3x Innervates then!

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

@Fasciae-fairbanks

Wait… wut?

I thought they fixed passive stuff

Enchants applied by items still count towards the total.

@Kaivax

WoW Classic

• Enchantments on gear should no longer count as helpful auras. They now count as passive auras.

There are still some enchantments occupying helpful slots – notably, the Arcanum enchants that will come from Dire Maul and other enchantments that are applied via item rather than via the enchanting profession. This was the case in our 1.12 reference.

@Theloras-herod

for the love of elune don’t stack 3x Power Infusions and 3x Innervates then!

Hey, man, I’m not the one doing it!

[Theloras-herod]

Hey, man, I’m not the one doing it!

i know - just being cheeky

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

@Fasciae-fairbanks

also what is your total buff list that you’re dropping Fort?

I am accounting for a lot of temporary buffs, just to avoid anything ever being knocked off.

Realistically I still have some buff slots left, but I’d rather be safe.

[Theloras-herod]

i’d laugh if u ever knocked off Dire Bear Form lolz

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

i’d laugh if u ever knocked off Dire Bear Form

I think the buffs have a priority system similar to debuffs. From my experience, world buffs are the first ones knocked off.

Prior to the bugfix, the passive aura effects from our gear were being knocked off, e.g. “+2% Hit.”

I think Dire Bear Form is one of the highest priority buffs, similar to Taunt being a highest priority debuff. Realistically, I don’t think it can be pushed off.

[Askalon-pagle]

I think

You don’t.

[Ohshiftson-stalagg]

You don’t

Do you have any arguments, or are you just here to troll?