You haven’t established why those metrics are objectively better to anyone other than yourself.
Other players prioritize different metrics.
The burden is on you to demonstrate why they shouldn’t.
You’re not reading what I’m saying. The metrics are objective. The value you give those metrics is subjective.
Do you understand the difference?
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Yes, and you have the burden of establishing why your ranking of those metrics should be prioritized over the way others rank those objective measures.
It’s your preference that raids prioritize those measurements.
Insulting my reading comprehension is a violation of the forum rules.
You’ve proffered no alternate ranking of metrics, specifically what could be optimized or improved once baseline survival and stability are established.
That you think there are ways to rank “can you survive” thresholds which are binary, with “can you deal more DPS” which scale infinitely, shows you’re being woefully disingenuous here.
Your feelings aren’t part of the forum rules.
Okay, good. You understand the difference.
Now here is what I said:
Notice the context?
More DPS is better… than generating useless extra threat.
Do you really want me to discuss the merits of doing more DPS instead of extra threat that has zero value because the DPS are already going all out and not pulling aggro, therefore extra threat will not allow them to increase their DPS?
No, it isn’t.
Here is the CoC:
- Racial / Ethnic
- Account Trading
- Extreme Sexuality / Violence
- Real-Life Threats
- Distribution of Real-Life Personal Information
- Sexual Orientation
- Posting Cheats, Hacks, Trojan Horses or Malicious Programs
- Impersonating a Blizzard Employee
- Posting Unreleased Content / Hacking Data Files
- Obscene / Vulgar
- Inappropriate Language
- Harassing or Defamatory
- Major Religions or Religious Figures
- National
- Illegal Drugs or Activities
- Spamming or Trolling
- Creating Duplicate Threads
- Cross Linking Threads
- Advertising
- Discussing Disciplinary Actions
- Circumventing a Suspension / Ban
Let’s see.
I did not discuss race or ethnicity.
I was not account trading, nor discussing account trading.
There was nothing extremely sexual or violent in my post.
I did not send real-life threats.
I did not distribute real-life personal information.
I did not discuss sexual orientation.
I was not posting chats, hacks, trojan horses, or malicious programs.
I was not impersonating a Blizzard employee.
I did not post unreleased content or hacked data files.
I was not obscene nor vulgar.
I was not using inappropriate language.
I was not harassing anyone, nor encouraging harassment.
I did not discuss major religions or religious figures.
I did not discuss nationality.
I did not discuss illegal drugs or activities.
I did not spam or troll.
I did not create a duplicate thread.
I did not advertise anything.
I did not discuss disciplinary actions.
I did not circumvent a suspension or ban.
To preempt your response, I know you will quote this line:
“Causing disturbances in forum threads, such as picking fights, making off topic posts that ruin the thread, insulting other posters”
I did not insult you. I said your reading comprehension needs work. That is not an insult, just as saying “You don’t understand what I’m saying” is not an insult.
Here is some actual trolling:
Ohshiftson is one of those no-life trolls who never left their parents’ basement.
Report your family to the police, dude. They’re enablers.
1 Like
Mana potions and Dark/Demonic runes are on seperate cooldowns. Even on 6 minute fights, mana isn’t really an issue on paladin, as long as you come prepared.
No need to consume on the short fights, and potions cover the rest.
1 Like
This reminds me of my grandkids arguing over which chicken nuggets are better"Wendys taste better" “Yeah but McDonalds have toys”“Mcdonalds toys are dumb” “yeah but Wendys honey mustard is bad”
Good grief,it’s a 15 year old video game,go have fun.
1 Like
Paladin tanks are terrible for main tanking in raids. I don’t care what TPS they are capable of. It was never threat that made them terrible.
Metrics are just a structuring of gathered data in a form to be read. 50% of all marriages in the U.S. end in divorce. This metric is portraying a shocking view on the situation. Let’s change the metric a bit: ~73% of people who get married stay married. Quite a disparity.
What do these marriage metrics have in common? They both have a narrow view point that don’t actually provide context of the whole situation.
The DPS first argument when well executed will lead to the intended result of making raids faster. In the same way, it can lead the inexperienced into situations that they can’t handle such as the interpersonal relations of the raid group or through taxing the healing/tanking core of the group.
On the flip side, focusing more on reliability and the group has it’s merits as well. When executed well you have less stress forced on the group of players, greater cohesion, and all around more flexible recruitment and substitutions that can complete content at the same rate as the earlier option thanks to lockouts. The negative is that it can stall more easily when performance suffers.
Both are equally valid arguments and in my opinion neither are better than the other due to the limitations and ease of content set by blizzard.
2 Likes
Well, prior to blessing spam a paladin had to wear much more threat gear giving similar mitigation to bear from BWL on. Now that that isn’t necessarily the case any more, paladins can grab more mitigation and more stamina without hurting the raid’s performance.
Comparisons of mitigation haven’t been done yet with the new style of play.
This is not only a cop-out nonposition but it’s also completely wrong. Blessing spam does not negate the comparisons which have already been done because theoretical maximums for paladin mitigation have long ago been part of the theorycrafting.
Look at the gear available, talents, core class abilities and see that warriors have the mitigation advantage everywhere. Every gear slot is either better or equal (warriors can wear all paladin tank gear, not vice versa), every talent, every ability, without exception, favors warriors for 63 boss tanking.
I’m guessing that your mitigation set is not including hit chance, right? So not only are you crittable but you’re also parry hasting the boss more often than your fellow warrior tank with a couple pieces of threat gear on.
Clearly he just wants to argue to be argumentative.
I make the same point, verbatim, and he insults my intelligence.
Okay, let me rephrase. The data is objective.
Warriors deal more DPS than Paladins. That is an objective fact. The value you put in that fact is subjective, however.
That’s the point I was trying to make.
There’s no way to interpret the data that puts Paladins ahead of Warriors in DPS.
I already made it clear throughout the thread that the focus of the tank should be staying alive first, then doing DPS second.
The idea of focusing on DPS presupposes that your group is already capable of handling the damage taken, and further mitigating it is unnecessary.
There is no added stress to the healers. I’m talking about reaching a point where the stress is within their capabilities of handling, and then focusing on damage.
In any case, if targeting the tank and spamming your heals is too stressful, I really don’t know if healing is the role you should be in. It’s not particularly challenging, and the difficulty of healing a tank is completely static; the only thing that changes is how much damage the tank can mitigate and how much mana the healer is spending. Either the tank takes more damage than the healer can heal, or they don’t.
You’ve said this twice without substantiation or proof. What exactly is a Paladin wearing at the end of BWL that is going to grant them mitigation anywhere near a Druid while being several thousand armor behind the Druid?
This 100%. I don’t get why people argue dishonestly like improving DPS is coming at the expense of randomly going-splat and wiping the raid. That’s a non-starter and isn’t even considered, which is why minimum survival thresholds are determined first, then you go for DPS.
Again generalizing.
For a Mage, a 2 minute fight without JoW isn’t an issue. Mages start off very efficient through talents with excellent threat reduction.
A Mage chain casting might expend between 8k and 9k mana during that interval. Starting mana, raid buffs, and consumables comfortably addresses that issue.
Now take a Warlock who can expend about 50% more mana during that same interval.
Take a look at Hunters, who will gain just over 50 INT from gear and no MP/5. 36 MP/5 from Imp BoW and a very anemic starting mana pool is what they have access to.
JoW is a DPS gain for a raid in a 2minute fight as long as adequate threat generation is present. Maybe not with Mages initially, but with other classes that is a fact.
Being dismissive of this doesn’t change that reality…it just attempts to erroneously further your argument.
Again a Paladin tank is not a mathematical raid wide scaling issue.
Connoting that a raid will now clear a raid 400% slower is pathetic.
2.4s of fight length suddenly means healers go OOM.
That a Paladin tanking…while generating overkill TPS in anyway affects a DPS class DPS’ing
Again generalized conclusions based on fallacy to promote a false narrative.
Healing isn’t just healing a static level of incoming DPS from a boss.
Healing thresholds aren’t based on static healing required.
Healing needs margin of error to account for conjunctive spike mechanics, latency, bad luck, some degree of human error, etc.
Its not a line in the sand.
Its a sliding scale from trivial to difficult…the more difficult the less margin exists for error or RNG.
Suggesting that a 6k AC Warrior compared to a 10k Paladin with a shield, in no way increases difficulty, places additional burden or stress on healers, or reduces margin or error is factually inaccurate.
Again oversimplification to promote an argument.
I’m trying to figure out what your saying here, so I’ll try.
Prot Paladins have +3% +hit through talents.
Prot Paladins are no more prone to crits than a Warriors are…they both have the same +def talents, the same pure avoidance values through talents…both have toughness, etc.
Battlegear of Might has 1% +hit only.
The idea is a paladin in mitigation gear will lack hit. A warrior gearing for threat will value %hit very highly as a stat, enough to get more than 3% pretty easily. Shield block giving 75% block is enough to push crits and crushes off the attack table once they reach a +def threshold. Paladins with only 30% block from holy shield cannot, unless they proc redoubt for another 30% which requires they be crit to do so.
If the content ever gets nontrivial in difficulty, a paladin geared for pure mitigation is still at greater risk for getting splatted than a warrior in balanced threat/mitigation gear because of the potential for crits and parry hasting.
Ok Etc I kinda see where your going with this now.
However Crit is addressed through +def…and Paladins can just as easily hit +def cap as Warriors.
The crush issue I agree with. Warriors can still be crushed on occasion even with Imp Shield Block, but Paladins will be crushed more.
However crushes are pretty easy to deal with considering current knowledge, ie mechanics, BiS lists, player awareness etc.
Considering Warriors are tanking using 2H or DW to maintain high threat, a Prot Paladin using a shield is going to be much easier to heal than that.
As far as +hit goes for plate tanks, most won’t overly pursue it over Effective Health levels.
Its an option for sure, but Warriors don’t really have an appreciable advantage there.
The big advantages for Warriors are Defensive Stance, Imp Shield Block, and threat scaling post BWL.
3 Likes
I’ll do it for him.
Ignoring longevity and assuming mana potions and demonic runes are enough to keep a Prot Paladin’s mana up throughout the fight, to the best of my knowledge…
Phase 3 BiS Paladin Mitigation Gear
3,821 HP unbuffed
7,775 Armor
391 Defense
8.04% Miss
21.53% Dodge
12.04% Parry
15.04% Block
56.65% Avoidance
57.46% DR from Armor
1 - 0.5746 = 0.4254
1 - 0.5665 = 0.4335
3,821 / 0.4254 / 0.4335 = 20,720
Phase 3 BiS Feral Threat Gear
5,363 HP unbuffed
8,358 Armor
4.4% Miss
10.95% Dodge
15.35% Avoidance
59.22% DR from Armor
1 - 0.5922 = 0.4078
1 - 0.1535 = 0.8465
5,363 / 0.4078 / 0.8465 = 15,535
Phase 3 BiS Feral Mitigation Gear
6,179 HP
15,259 Armor
322 Defense
5.88% Miss
15.93% Dodge
21.81% Avoidance
72.61% DR from Armor
1 - 0.7261 = 0.2739
1 - 0.2181 = 0.7819
6,179 / 0.2739 / 0.7819 = 28,852
Have to consider Holy Shield, as well, but it’s not 100% uptime (unless the boss only swings every 2.5 seconds), and block isn’t 100% damage reduction like a Miss/Dodge/Parry is. Also have to consider crushing blows and crits, but Feral mitigates those much better than Prot Paladin does.
Not generalizing. Get your pre-raid BiS and what I’m describing is possible.
Life Tap.
They consume less mana to begin with.
No, it isn’t, because it takes up a debuff slot.
The only way it is a DPS gain is if the mana it restores prevents a damage loss equal to the damage gain a different debuff would’ve caused.
The only way that’ll be the case is if several people are running out of mana and the fight is several minutes long.
No, you’re intentionally cutting off what I said:
The mentality that allows a Prot Paladin is what reduces everyone’s DPS. The Prot Paladin itself does not result in the things I listed.
Of course, which is what I’m talking about.
“I’m talking about reaching a point where the stress is within their capabilities of handling”
The difficulty doesn’t increase. Tank healers continue to spam heal the tank regardless. The only thing that changes is the amount of damage that is healed.
At best you could argue that having to target the tank and continually spam your heals is “stressful” or “difficult.”
lol why would we need hit when we spam GBoK?
and how are dual wield Fury Warrior tanks able to use shield block when they don’t wear a shield?
PS the dual wield Fury Warriors will also be mashing their /sit macros to maintain permanent Enrage as well so they’re gonna be crit/crushed a lot more than Prot Paladins
like seriously dude, did u even read any of the posts in this thread?
3 Likes
No its not
Allowing a Prot Paladin to tank is NOT a raid wide contagious STD that somehow reduces everyone’s DPS
Paladin tanking is more than effective from a mitigation perspective.
Paladin threat is more than effective until AQ40.
You lose minimal DPS measured against raid wide values, that’s it.
The rest of your argument is drivel.
Life Tap takes time away from chain casting damage.
Even talented thats 1.5s for 500 mana.
In a 2m fight that is a 1.25% loss of DPS for EVERY cast of lifetap.
So yes Lifetap is a DPS loss.
And yes Warlocks can make use of JoW for a DPS gain…even in a 2 minute fight.
Hunters can consume more mana than Imp BoW + Base mana pool in a 2m fight if they actually have access to it.
Aimed Shot is 3k+ mana per minute.
That doesn’t include twisting in other shots while AS is on cooldown.
Hunters can burn Mage levels of mana…without the starting mana pool nor MP/5 mages have to draw on.
No one said the actual player difficulty increased.
Considering the +spell crit levels of available Paladin gear in MC…and the dearth of +healing gear in MC, Paladins are best served by using HL/BoL crit mechanics.
BoL’s affect on HL and FoL is NOT linear…so once you break +20% crit, a Paladin is best served using downranked HL over FoL.
However what actual Rank of HL I then utilize depends on tank damage received.
The more tank damage taken the more I’m using Rank 6 over Rank 4 to maintain necessary HP/sec in combination with other healers.
That actually stresses my Mana Pool, Mana Regen, and overall endurance.
It can even require another tank healer added to a raid force in place of an additional DPS, especially when you have a Warrior not using a shield and intentionally sitting to be crit.
4 Likes