You’re off your rocker. We have to prep and aim our CC, we have to kite due to crappy survivability, we have to compensate for terrible pet pathing on certain maps that hinder our ability to utilize the full spellbook, and now you say more chores will do us good?
Other classes purely have to point and click their CC, have to just hit their targets, or have defensive CDs that keep them alive without having to trinket.
You’re very tunnel visioned on this topic.
There’s no class with more chores than hunter in PvP… Also What healer would wnt to use their mana to heal a pet to help when mana starving is a real strategy in Arena / RBGs? Why even bring a hunter at that point when we are socked with consistent chores?
I feel as if you’re not seeing that pet management is truly a thing now with abilities ensuring that not only you but your pet has to have LOS on target for abilities to work.
So like in Temple of kotmogu I have to wait for my pet to path around the entire map to pop my offensive CD and try to get a clutch kill in a timely manner.
These are things we already have to compensate for due to pet pathing.
Pet management is purely a thing now, they just can die so very easily and 6 seconds almost guarantees we need to pop our only defensive CD to rez, which just like our traps we have to prep, just like our defensive CD we have to trinket first, so everything is contingent. How much do we need to prep to make sure we can effectively work?
Those other class issues while related in an established meta are other class problems.
Other classes who basically have FREE Crowd control on a CD like for example Storm Bolt and can be Arena 1,2,3’d into a target with out thought are a huge problem for the game, because they require zero setup and thought, you just use them. I am even more opposed to that kind crap, just that this is not that conversation.
This is instead about trying to bring the game one part at a time back to something that’s a lot more fun and interesting to play.
Playing a pet class should require pet management, and using BFA is a point of reference is not a good plan because of how low the actual class damage is when you remove corruptions and all the other BS procs on top of procs on top of procs that all classes presently have that do the bulk of their damage.
From Legion to Now it has never been so easy to get high ranks in Arena because most of the great players have quit the game because of trash design like Legions and BFA, but there are still some players like my self who want Retail to be good again, and know what Risk vs Reward looks like in PVP and have not forgotten how great WoW PVP can be.
When Blizzard makes a good choice even if its a small one like this I will stick up for them, and that’s why I posted because I agree with what they are doing here.
Do other things NEED to change? Yes, very much so, like most of the classes could use for numerous abilities to be restored too them that were pruned in WoD, Legion and BFA.
Many classes need abilities that have essentially zero cost other than the CD changed to have a steep resource cost. You should have to make a choice if you want to use that Storm Bolt or do damage, you should not just be able to do both and PVE into a target all willy nilly with out any worry about LoS or randomly getting globaled by RNG proc’s on top of procs on top of procs on top of procs.
The game is broken man, and that’s why I am for such a change back to more sane game play.
Blizzard is lost at sea right now, their development team has either forgotten how to do things or never knew because they are new or something, but when they do it right… even if its something small they need to know they did the right thing.
Here is hoping there is more common sense changes to be made.
Imagine having this entire thread full of strong arguments as to why a 6 second pet res is a terrible idea, including one of the top PvP Hunters in the world, and still being deluded enough to pop in and write pages of unfiltered nonsense about how it’s a great thing. Classic players are truly capable of next-level delusion some times that this is a perfect example.
No. A 6 second res is unreasonable, period. It’s not suddenly fine because it was even worse in the past.
It is, in fact, that bad in the grand scheme of things. BM is already in an extremely poor position in PvP. It is already easy to kill the pet and lock the Hunter out of ressing it. Even at just 2 seconds it is already problematic because we simply do not have the ability to keep our pet alive through any sort of focus or even moderate to heavy cleave damage. Upping it to 6 seconds is such a major nerf you simply will not see BM or SV in rated PvP at any high rating period. This isn’t just “manage it a bit better”. What a spectacularly ignorant and dismissive stance. Tripling the already-punishing Revive Pet cast time is the most major PvP nerf Hunters have seen in years and that really is saying something given what BM has had to put up with in 7.2.5 and 8.0.
Throughout your entire post you dishonestly set up this dichotomy where it’s a choice between pet management at a 6 second res time and no pet management at a 2 second res time. Newsflash: we need to manage our pet right now.
Let’s also not miss the fact that you apparently think simply having a pet makes a spec OP, which is an amateurish attitude that most people get over after a few months of playing WoW and understanding the game. Our pet is the central and critical part of our damage; as crucial as weapons to a Rogue.
You don’t even get the basics. Don’t pretend to be coming from any position of authority on this. I can’t get over how stunningly ignorant and patronising this particular line is. Hunters are already hanging by a thread in rated PvP. Evidently we already have plenty of “opportunity costs” given we are hardly competitive in the modern PvP environment. This is sounding less like you trying to honestly advocate for skillful gameplay and more like you just wanting to see Hunters punished because you personally don’t like the class and the people who play it.
Yes, that was the exact point of the part you quoted and exactly what I was trying to convey with that other person saying similarly uninformed drivel. Congratulations for keeping up, I guess.
Pet management is already important.
Good grief.
Here you are again apparently under the impression that pets for Hunters are a bonus that puts them above other classes rather than an essential part of how the class works. This sort of logic is something typical of new and inexperienced players. Everyone’s heard of the noob who demands Hunters dismiss their pets for duels because it’s “unfair 2v1”. I’ve never met one bold enough to come to the forums with that logic, however.
Notice here how you once again handwave about “pet management” which is a recurring theme in this thread; both in your posts and those of the ignorant people before you. I’d like you to go into detail about what you think “pet management” actually entails. Here’s a hint: there is not much we can do and all the necessary pet management steps are already taken by Hunters in PvP. We also aren’t actually gaining any ability to manage our pet; they are just worsening an already-large penalty.
Oh, they’re catering to us now? I must have missed this along with every PvP Hunter given that Hunters are borderline nonviabile in rated PvP. Marksmanship is out of the picture entirely, BM hardly exists, and SV only hangs on in PvP due to some powerful CC coming from spec-unique PvP talents. Our toolkit is more-or-less what we had in Cataclysm while other classes have made major strides. It’s hard to get the most basic maintenance changes out of Blizzard for the class now, let alone any significant improvement, and the single most significant and ambitious change they’ve made in the last 5 years is taking away one of our ranged specs and turning it into something more familiar to Warriors and Rogues.
Since you are clearly utterly uninformed about modern Hunters, let me fill you in on why pets have those improvements made over the years: in the early parts of the game pets did a chunk of our total damage but were not central to the flow and function of how BM worked. Now, they are. A large majority of BM’s damage and SV’s focus regeneration comes from the pet. It’s built into the toolkit with Kill Command. Losing the pet is almost as disabling as being disarmed. If pets functioned now like they did Classic we would have no chance in any PvP situation… but I suspect that’s what you’re aiming for here.
Besides, pets are actually less tanky than recent expansions. They tend to have less relative health and we no longer have things like the Mend Pet glyph and Heart of the Phoenix. When our pet res was brought down to 2 seconds our pets were better at holding up in PvP than they are now. That change was made precisely because it was too easy to lock down Hunters by eliminating the pet… and that was done when pets had an easier time surviving.
Like I’ve said a couple times now: your logic is a lot less crazy when we frame it from the perspective of someone who simply wants Hunters to be a lot worse.
Laughable. Hunters in PvP were in a much better relative position to other classes in Classic and TBC. It was easier to kite melee as they didn’t have nearly the level of gap-closing madness as they did now. And when talking about what it takes to deal damage it’s not even a contest. You’re praising the difficulty of an iteration of the class that could literally be played with a castsequence macro. What is it with Classic players and their unironic belief that they descend from a higher plane of intelligence?
What’s laughable is how you’re behaving like a poster child for the Dunning Kreuger effect. If you had the slightest level of relevant experience you would now how Hunters are faring in PvP and how they already have to manage their pets given the ease of other classes in killing the pet and locking the Hunter out of getting it back. It’s such an effective counter that BM Hunters are practically non-existent in rated PvP. But I guess even the paltry margin of BM Hunters holding out is too much for you. Would you prefer to just have them delete BM from the game entirely?
Uh, no, they aren’t. Useless defense. If you think there is some significant game-wide difference to PvP that somehow makes a 6-second pet res not so bad for Hunters then feel free to detail it here. I’m sure you can’t given your perpetual cluelessness about the modern PvP scene but it would be interesting to see you try.
Is every counter-argument of yours going to look like this? Some breathtakingly useless deflection about how “oh no that’s a different situation” with absolutely no further detail? As Kuvlad says you’re defeating your own argument here given BM and SV are even more dependent on their pets to function.
If you want Hunters to have more pet management then why are you against having more pet management tools in the class? How come you only want the harsher punishment for not managing you pet, i.e. something that won’t actually change anything other than just making the class worse? Once again, you make a lot more sense when we assume “making the class worse” is your goal.
No amount of “tuning” is going to make a 6 second res work out for Hunters given the sorts of utilities other classes are keeping/gaining. In modern PvP we simply need a shorter pet res. 6 seconds is unjustifiable with the tools we’re given to keep our pet alive.
Yes, there has to be a trade-off.
We already have that trade-off.
Evidently there are more than enough trade-offs here given BM Hunters are practically dead in rated PvP.
Tripling the cast time of Revive Pet is not equivalent to adding pet management to a class that has none. For one, we already have to manage our pet so this talk of Hunters having no pet management is a lie. Secondly, like I’ve said already, we aren’t gaining any ability to manage our pet here. We still have the same crappy Mend Pet and not much else.
You agree with this change because you want to see Hunters made worse. Simple as that.
You try to save face here by saying that everyone’s overpowered but it doesn’t work because you’re still ardently defending Hunters being kicked while they’re down while other classes are not being significantly nerfed. They can’t nerf everyone “one part at a time” by only screwing over the class that’s already struggling.
Besides; isn’t this a bit ridiculously hypocritical? You’re hailing from a version of the game that didn’t have diminishing returns for many forms of crowd control. There are some truly broken specs in classic WoW. Don’t be that starry-eyed nostalgic dreamer who insists that classic WoW was perfect in all aspects.
BFA is the current expansion so that’s what makes sense as a point of reference. Besides, these pet issues are just as relevant before and after Corruption, or even the entire expansion. Like I said, Revive Pet had to be nerfed down to 2 seconds all the way back in MoP because Hunters were struggling in that expansion. It had become too easy for other classes to lock down Hunters. While you might be interested in turning Hunters into a free kill in PvP we do actually want it to be a functioning and competitive class.
Uh, this is conjecture. You literally have top rated PvP Hunters in this very thread and they’ve been involved in WoW PvP for several expansions. Maybe ask them about these issues because you clearly don’t have the requisite knowledge to come to an informed conclusion.
You’re sticking up for them on this because you want Hunters to be worse. End of story.
The rest of your post is the same delusional Classic player rant about how everything’s too easy now and in Classic you had to walk uphill both ways in the snow, as if Classic was the epitome of balanced and challenging gameplay (lmao).
BC gladiator hunter here tho (s3, sorta s4 but drama happened and i left the team and quit the expac), BC hunter didn’t really take much skill lol
you spammed wingclip praying for imp wing clip procs and hit viper sting whenever it was gonna work on the rdruid while your healer put you on their back
even playing something like dreamstate druid/hunter and doing good CC chains wasn’t that difficult, relatively speaking
everyone was just trash back then
not so sure about it being easier to kite in BC tho, but doesn’t really detract from the point with the rez change
the amount of changes that would have to happen to make this work out is so substantial that it’s never gonna happen, dude’s lost his noodle
The skill required to play a hunter now in retail is less than a fraction of what is required for a hunter playing at the top level in TBC Arena, and that is even to a degree if there were arena in Classic slightly easier than playing in Classic.
Your actually delusional. Top level TBC had brute force damage for the entirety of its existence with only 2-3 players actually being able to utilise the tool kits they were given. The level of skill now far exceeds what people back in the TBC had. Also classic pvp would be non functional in arena, are you so blind to have even looked at half the tool kits and how they just don’t work in an enclosed arena environment?
Just be glad its not 10 sec cast like it has been in the past.
6 sec is a long cast, but its not that bad in the grand scheme of things, and overall a good move in some regard because it requires you think about your actions on where you send your pet, and also requires you manage it a tiny bit better.
You have no idea how pets have changed over the course of the years to the point that you have no idea how pets function within the current game state. longer pet rez timers were around when stuff like mend pet was spam-able and pets had a lot more utility. I’m also varely sure that around wrath the mortal wounds part wasn’t on pets so if a hunters pet died, at least for mm the damage loss was all that matters, not the loss of a critical debuff.
Killing a hunter pet these days is SO much more impactful then in the TBC. and pets are still as janky as ever and obtaining a pet with a both a defensive CD and mortal wounds is impossible.
Without requiring pet management the performance of a pet will be decreased significantly because it has to be in order to keep the class even slightly in balance with the rest of the classes in game.
Risk VS Reward and opportunity costs are required for high quality game play, and I get it, now days no one wants the risk, they only want the reward, but there is no fun in that.
Please explain to me the reward that i somehow am getting from good pet management? Not losing my pet for 30 seconds? Actually playing the getting to play the game? You actually sound more delusional with everything i read.
The use of macro is universal for any kind of PVP even at the lower tiers of competition, every one does it.
Thing is, pet management should always be important, just like its important for a warrior to avoid LoS’n his healer or a rogue to avoid getting destroyed because he trinketed the wrong thing at the wrong time.
How are any of these things equivocal? Avoiding LoS of healer is something literally every class has to do. Same with trinket. I’m actually just reply to a form troll that gets off to anyone mentioning anything from the his ‘good (cough) old days’. Edit: probably from where he thinks he was good as well.
Also, BFA =/= Shadow lands, they are totally different. What the meta is in BFA does not translate to Shadowlands at all. I dont know why you guys even bring up BFA balance or where hunters are right now, that’s the single worst argument ever.
I think you are just missing the point… I am trying to take the game back to where its not utter crap.
Mend pet SHOULD be something you can use at any time assuming you have the resources present, it should not have a cooldown, but that’s not what this is all about. Yes I know pets have evolved, but the game is garbage now. Its time to change that, its time for the game to be awesome again instead of this horrible dribble that its become.
I think you missed the part where I want the game reverted back a few generations to where it was actually good, and tack on some upgrades that have been needed for many years now.
Your expecting them to somehow totally revamp how pets work. it doesn’t work like that. It will never work like that. The meta cannot function around a 6 second pet rez, not anymore. Trust me, i’ve played with it.
There is just so much broken with Shadow lands, I really want retail PVP to be excellent again… Remember when it was really really really super fun, I do and I want that back.
I want all the classes to be freaking amazing again like they were in Mists, you could take anything to Glad back then, it was amazing and so much fun.
Now days stack your corruptions, and pray to RNG for a cheese victory, and make sure you picked on of the classes that’s slightly less frequently globaled… unless you pick warlock and just machine gun everyone to death because LOL this game is jacked.
Now days stack your corruptions, and pray to RNG for a cheese victory, and make sure you picked on of the classes that’s slightly less frequently globaled… unless you pick warlock and just machine gun everyone to death because LOL this game is jacked.
That is a temporary system, please don’t use bfa’s temporary systems as an arguing point for shadowlands
Correct, and a bad one that every one seems to focus on. The classes them selves to far too little damage on their own without all the borrowed power, and its not good.
If things are toned down a bit in terms of mobility, but at the same time not making the game unplayable either, and bringing back stuff like Mend pet, so that a hunter can heal his pet at will, and improve how pet management is done, the cast time for revive pet could be greater than 2 sec easily.
Right now, there are just so many ways to interrupt casting that are FAR too easy to use, and that right there is the other half of the problem with casters in this game overall. Casting should be valuable, but it should also incorporate opening your self up to getting locked when casting.
However abilities like Kick and Counterspell would not be so bad if these abilities were on the global cooldown, that in turn drives a hard nail into kick bots, because the rotation has to be broken for the kick to be used.
Mobility mechanics could be toned down a bit too, so that getting to range can be valuable again rather than LOL DEMONHUNTER IS LITERALLY FLYING UP URANUS.
Blizzard has terribly dropped the ball on class design and game design in general, its so horrible that it makes me sad to see WoW in such a bad state.
If things are toned down a bit in terms of mobility
I’m sorry dude, but this won’t ever happen.
Right now, there are just so many ways to interrupt casting that are FAR too easy to use, and that right there is the other half of the problem with casters in this game overall. Casting should be valuable, but it should also incorporate opening your self up to getting locked when casting.
However abilities like Kick and Counterspell would not be so bad if these abilities were on the global cooldown, that in turn drives a hard nail into kick bots, because the rotation has to be broken for the kick to be used.
Ok, are you saying that stuns being used as interrupts was somehow difficult to use. or that putting interrupts on the GCD makes it harder to be interrupted ??? that is in no way the case and only adds a ton of jankiness to the game. If mists is your ideal state of the game i have no idea why you are talking about this.