Still waiting on that example of when the faction war was done well
It’s okay, I’ll wait
Why would I do that? I liked the cold war setup and I’m arguing FOR it. All of my examples would be from that era, and even then I’m arguing that they IMPROVE UPON what they started with rather than scrapping it.
What are you talking about? You’re not making sense.
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And I said the faction war sucked outside of it being a Cold War and you went Lol no, you’re wrong. Read and than COMPREHEND what I said before responding next time
The only one not making sense is you.
I genuinely thought you were saying you dont even want a return to the cold war.
If that wasnt the case then that’s 100% my bad and we agree.
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Hugs Hey, it happens. I know we all are sometimes are far too eager to disagree before we take the time to understand what was said.
No worries at all. 
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Dude for real. I’m so used to people making ridiculous arguments that I forget some people are smart and genuine and I should give them the benefit of the doubt 
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Sorry for the combative responses. I’m like you, I’m soo used to the ridiculous statements that often plague this forum that I have little patience these days
And when you think about it, even the reasons for 2 of the BG of Vanilla are making little sense :
Warsong Gulth ; Why Thrall who is supposed to be not searching conflict, and even allied with the Night Elves agaisnt the Legion in Hyjal and even yelled at Grommash for doing the same thing order the warsong clan to do exactly the same and cut more wood? When there is Echo Islands not so far away?
Alterac Valley : Why are the Frostwolves here again? I mean…in war3 they moved to Durotar you know? Yeah yeah Durotar was the new home of the orcs and Drek’thar was there.
Exactly, thats where the mmo format just dont make it possible.
Canonically the Horde lost both Warfronts.
It was said in the Blizzcon.
Why do you call bfa the second war?
I think it cant, you saw it in Cata, MoP, and bfa, they tried it bascially 3 times.
And the main problem is : you cant really win or lose, so the engagement is just not here if you know there wont be real winner at end.
You know that, the 3rd war was not a faction war? Because thats still Warcraft, the 3rd war was agaisnt the Legion in war3 which is the best game of that franchise.
So no, it dont have to be about faction war, any war is relevant.
So why have two factions in an MMO if you can’t have them experience any conflict between one another? What is the purpose of factions in a game like that? Why not just have no factions?
Just to be clear, I’m assuming you must be against the faction divide in general right?
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It’s not that. Just that back in Vanilla through Wrath, the horde and alliance had very clear moral/cultural and social differences in how they handled things and viewed the world, and those differences would spark the ocassional conflict with the opposing side.
Also known as PvP and battlegrounds. But the game has steadyly eroded any and all unique differences between both factions that both sides lost all semblance of what people originally loved about both factions
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Yeah this is the kinda thing I want back. A sense that these two factions are two different cultures with different values and goals that inevitably come into conflict with one another.
That’s…the point of factions right?In MMOs and RPGs in general.
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That’s supposed to be the point. People who like the current status quo generally don’t seem to know how cultures and morals work. From a IRL or even fantasy perspective
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Few things here:
- Do you REALLY want to bring up RTS comparisons? And tie the RTS factions to the WOW factions? Because, if so the Horde already destroyed Stormwind. Meaning if we wanted ‘fair,’ the Alliance should burn Orgrimmar to the ground.
- Arthas was not part of either Alliance at the time.
- Arthas was the prince of Lordaeron, which would be Forsaken. Meaning he has more connection to Horde.
Given the extreme level of ignorance you have demonstrated about the Alliance the choices are:
- You didn’t actually play both.
- You just skimmed as you played Alliance and retained nothing.
- You have been intentionally ignoring facts you know, in other words lying for quite some time.
- Your bias so clouded your view that you could not separate your preconceived notions from what was actually happening.
I assumed it was #1 because that is the most generous assumption. I was trying to give you the best benefit of the doubt option.
Personally, I didn’t find it even remotely well done. Partially because it only effected your personal story. It honestly didn’t feel like an actual faction conflict, just a personal one. And the lack of actual impact of your choices made it feel very disconnected. It felt like the choice system was designed for a single player game then slapped into a MMO where none of your choices could actually matter. That my just be my personal feeling though.
Pretty much. As a background, just tension kind of thing it didn’t have be won. It didn’t have to have a villain. It could just be. Once they tried to take it larger it ran into all the problems an MMO adds to faction conflict stories. And it failed because there was no way to make it work.
As a large scale conflict, it is. The mechanics of an MMO make it so there is no way it can ever be done satisfyingly.
The way that one made sense to me was that it was a brief event that we kept playing for gameplay purposes. Kind of like the Gilneas BG. The fight flared up, lasted a short time and then Thrall and the Night Elves made peace. Warsong Gulch was a brief blip, not a continuing fight.
Yah, it was a bit of a retcon from WC3. Kind of just have to shrug that one off.
I think, that this have nothing to do with the faction conflicts themselves, but more in the races that were added over the course of the years and how the factions evolved.
What i mean is, for example, in my opinion, right when they added the Blood Elves in the Horde, it was i remind you (and thats what devs said) to make people who “did not like monstruous races to join the Horde” but to be honest, this was the begining of the end ofr the Horde, as then it started to have more and more elven races, and the belf is the most popular race in the Horde, but what people loved in the Horde in vanilla were the savagery of Orcs, and Troll and Tauren, and to play a monster like undead too!
The Alliance had these more “good” races, not to forget, back in vanilla, you had also the Lord of the rings movies that came out, people played humans mages named Gandalf, and stuff like that.
To me, thats where the things started to be wrong.
And you see, having this from a Blood Elf, who want his faction to be “more culturally” different than the Alliance, is just fascinating!
Well, it was literally like “hummmm lets put a bg!” “but lore dont work here” “i dont care i want bg here!”
At least Arathi Bassin worked.
Funny you talk about ignorance when you are so wrong.
You said :
You only prove your ignorance.
Here is a Wrynn giving a speech in Org :
You are quick to throw out insults which you exemplify. Total ignorance of what you type. I am glad you learned that you are wrong, and a Wrynn did in fact give a speech in Org during BfA.
I am happy to enlighten you, and help you shed some of your ignorance of BfA and the Faction Conflict.
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I disagree, there was setup for a great faction war in BfA. The Horde had been sufficiently naughty across WoW’s lifetime to justify an aggressive Alliance – the cinematic gulled many into such hopes – but not so naughty that its players couldn’t rally to its defense. But having the Horde go evil and destroy itself twice in a row shot out all nuance and left us with such a disaster they abandoned faction conflict altogether. For how integral rival factions once were to the game’s identity, the sum of their conflict amounting to that is a pathetic legacy.
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These people (and yes this is a direct call out) lack both basic media literacy and real world cultural literacy.
And we’re stuck with a more boring, less nuanced, less interesting game world (in part) because of them.
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And imo, i think, that Blizzard just cant do it, because its beyound both what the game can offer and their writing skills :
Simple because, it would ask them to actually makes lot more sense in all of their steps, for example in bfa, something i really disliked was how for example you had no impact on the burnng of Teldrasil in how the night elves were represented in the army, like you did not feel like the night elves lost a big part of their forces, you still had a big amount of Night Elves in the army, no army depletion is just not doing it for me…
Even more dumb was how they sent night elves to a suicide mission in Nazmir, while they telling us they lost a big amount of their people.
It was same with all the faction war, its just, ressources dosent matter, and since it dont matter, i dont see why it can be believable.
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So much dodging the actual issues.
Here, I will make it simple for you:
Yes, I forgot about Anduin giving a speech about how great Saurfang and the Horde were. But that only makes your claim about how ‘bad the Horde was treated’ make even less sense.
But, again, in the faction conflicts:
The Horde were the ones that got the power fantasy, not the Alliance. The problem was that they were the villains waging war, wiping out cities, killing people in their sleep, etc.
Do you think that is the case outside of the faction wars that already happened? The ones that never should have happened in the first place?
Even if we include the faction wars, stop and think where we are. Since then the factions have made peace. They have worked together several times since. The leaders are actively pursuing peace, on both sides. They are talking with each other.
So, what story could you tell right now that would make sense for either faction to start a full scale faction war that doesn’t paint one as the villain? Even with the Horde’s past crimes, the Alliance starting a war would just make the Alliance the villain of the story. And Horde attacking a third time, well that would be a triple villain. It just doesn’t work from a story point of view. There is no way to start a full scale war without painting one side of the other as a villain.
And even if you could make a story that didn’t have that issue, you are still stuck with the fundamental issues of an MMO. The end of the war cannot change the status quo. Both factions have to be the same as they started. Neither faction can win. But players are going to want their faction to win. It cannot possibly end in a way that is satisfying for anyone.
The sad thing is, factions can be rivals without war. A war can never work in an MMO. And them trying to make wars work ruined most options for non-war rivalries.
I believe what you are saying is what I have been getting at.
Blizzard writers are decent. They are moderately skilled writers.
But it doesn’t really matter their skill level, the task of writing a good faction war is impossible. The best in the world couldn’t do it, so Blizzard certainly can’t.
It is kind of like asking a high school basketball player to sink a basket from on the other end of a football field. Sure, he lacks the ability to do it. But so does everyone, so his skill level doesn’t actually matter.
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I think, thats true, yes, to me, its just that, well, the game cant make you feel like there is an actual conflict.
And here is the thing, BFA tried its best at making you think there is a world wide conflict : but the thing is, the infos to this wold wide conflict are in the misson table, because you do have lots of fightning going on in the wold during bfa if you read the mission table.
But then people will say “oh but i dont feel like its a faction war!” well ok, but then it means we have to do a world revamp like in Cata to make you feel like it…and that would just burn out ressources very hard, just like Cata did.