Reaching Erevien levels of delusional right there
1 Like
Talk again when the Horde ever manages to stand in Stormwind and deliver a speach after we ousted Turalyon okay?
3 Likes
Not sure whatâs the obsession with having your leader deliver a speech in the enemy capital after they committed a genocide and destroyed everything your race had. That was more insulting than anything else. I wonder how people like you would react if you got the Night Elvesâ treatment.
The Horde lost the war and got their leadership obliterated a second time. Thatâs worse.
2 Likes
I donât think it is just they canât write it. I think it canât be written.
Think about what a âgoodâ faction war requires.
You have to have the factions who have worked together many times to save the world start an all out war. But you canât have one side be villain batted. Seriously, how can you have that make any sense? They have worked together enough times that unless one side is being pure villain there is no way it makes sense they would not find another solution. So, you have to make one side a villain.
On top of that, once a faction war kicks off you have to have a winner. But you also canât have a winner. All the players want their side to win, otherwise the whole thing feels unsatisfying. But you canât have a winner because both factions have to still be there when it is over. Not only that, they have to still be roughly equal, meaning you canât actually gain any ground. Essentially a faction conflict has to end as a stalemate. It has to end with the villain that started it deposed by their faction and everything else back to how it was at the start. The only ending for a faction conflict is the most unsatisfying ending for everyone.
A faction war cannot possible start well or end well. It has always been a lose, lose proposition.
Neither side actually won.
Both times the Horde didnât lose because by the time the war got to Orgrimmar the Horde was not in control of Orgrimmar. The Horde was the rebels by that point.
Also, small side point, the second war (BfA) did not have a Wrynn giving a speech in Orgrimmar. Anduin just watched Saurfang give his speech and then win the war for us.
And how would you have felt if, for the sake of fairness, Silvermoonâs population was wiped out and you couldnât save more than a tiny fraction of its population? What Horde city do you think it would have been fair to turn into a crater for the sake of fairness? Maybe we drop a bomb on Gromgal while it is full of a bunch of the Horde generals and army. That would be fair, right?
See, that is the problem when people like you complain about things ânot being fair.â The reality is that you want the Alliance to lose everything equal to what the Horde did, but you donât really want the Horde to lose things comparable to the Alliance losses.
Losses are not 1 to 1 and trying to make the other side match all your losses but not also advocating for your side to match all their losses makes you a hypocrite.
Oh, right the where we are told: âWe canât possibly win against the Loyalist Horde and need the Rebel Horde to save us.â
Yah, totally heroicâŠ
Been done several time. Notably when facing off against Garrosh and later Sylvanas. Notably with Garrosh we are sent to Volâjin to beg for his help. And with Sylvanas we are told we wont win without the Horde rebels and need Saurfang to save the day.
The opposite happened. I know you didnât play Alliance characters to see the other side, so let me clue you in. Basically every fight in game between the factions ends with either a Horde victory or a stalemate. Even Undercity were the Horde retreating was Sylvanas plan and the Alliance still barely survived. Both faction wars repeatedly showed the Horde stomping the Alliance right up to the point the rebels broke off. If anything, they were both Horde power fantasies.
Look, I know the faction conflict story was bad for Horde players. But it wasnât because they were a punching bag. They werenât. It was bad because the Alliance was the punching bag for no reason. The Horde were made to be the villains who were attacking, destroying cities, and stomping on the Alliance just because a mad Warchief wanted it.
The faction wars were Horde power fantasies. The Horde players that liked the faction conflict were those that were hopped up on the power fantasy and did not care about being villains. And their only complaint was the power fantasy did not go far enough and let them destroy the Alliance. The rest of the Horde players were not shallow enough to fixate on the power fantasy and hated having to be the bad guys.
In a word: Badly.
4 Likes
Tension is how you handle a faction war where players are both factions and they also come together to help each other.
Itâs why the âfaction warâ worked in Vanilla, it was a cold war.
Outright war just upsets everyone and leaves everything messed up and disgruntled.
The Horde didnât lose anything to the Alliance lol
Tell me, how many cities of the Alliance were destroyed in the history of wow? How many Horde ones?
Because a part for Torajo there is nothing the Alliance destroyed, even Undercity was destroyed by its own faction lmao.
Overall I agree.
Honestly, I am not even sure Vanilla could even be called a âcold war.â That kind of implies more of an organized effort than there was. The actual top leadership of both factions wanted peace and cooperation, and were even pushing to keep it. I think pre-cata would be best described as numerous local tension points that sometimes got out of hand.
3 Likes
The problem with the Faction War being anything but a Cold War is that a war would require one side clearly winning and the other loosing.
Itâs fine, even required for a RTS, but in a two faction game that obviously canât happen and why we wound up with the horrible situation the BfA gave us.
3 Likes
I mean the Horde did win in BfA on pretty much all accounts, but Anduin giving a speech in Orgrimmar is somehow supposed to make us believe that the Alliance won?
It was only the Alliance who suffered great losses and tragedy. The Horde didnât even suffer military losses
I mean, technically not wrong. I believe the alliance wining the warfronts were confirmed via Twitter/X.
Word. For. Word.
Iâm soo sick of everything being so morally simple and boring with the factions.
Its especially ironic because Blizzard seems committed to making the major cosmic forces as nihilistic and morally empty as possible, but when it comes to the factions? Nah lets just all get along and be nice.
Itâs SO BORING. I WANT to dislike the other faction and feel proud of my own. I want both sides to have upsides and downsides, real cultural political and moral differences.
Instead we getâŠwhat we have now.
4 Likes
Do you ever tire of being wrong?
Here is a Wrynn giving a speech in Org during BfA.
A leader of the Alliance did that already. Anduin even sets the crimes of Arthas as those of the legacy of the Alliance.
Shows how wrong you are, again. Not even sure where this comes from. I played Alliance during BfA, completed both War Campaigns.
I donât pretend to know what you play, or if you even play. From how wrong you are, I would just say you see it differently, whether you play or not.
I played Loyalists and Alliance in BfA - I didnât roll any Traitorfangs though.
4 Likes
Right but now we have neither.
Because Blizzard ruined it. Doesnât mean it wasnât/isnât a good idea that can be done well.
Iâm just sooo disinterested in a game where everyone gets along and thereâs no cultural or political intrigue.
It makes the World of Warcraft feel less like a World, not to mention the removal of the âwarâ aspect.
Like, what are we doing? How have we lost sight of like half the point of this franchise?
Now THIS. This is the real problem.
And it really annoys me that Blizzard has ruined the idea of faction conflict for newer players.
3 Likes
100% this.
If you want to know why some of care about faction conflict despite Blizzardâs failure to do it well, read this post.
2 Likes
The ONLY game that has done a faction war even remotely well was Star Wars: The Old Republic where your choices affected your characters personal story.
The Faction War in WoW was always itâs least interesting aspect and the last time people generally agree it was ANY good was in vanilla when it was a background thing to justify PvP and battlegrounds
Says who? You? Well, I think youâre wrong.
See? I can just make statements too. Doesnât mean everyone agrees.
So I guess its just impossible to do it well, huh? Nothing to do with getting writers who actually want to do a well written faction conflict.
Does it ever get boring seeing all the culture, intrigue, and nuance of the factions get sucked out in favor of generic fantasy slop?
I just want to feel like my faction means something, dude. Like I actually picked a side and have convictions that align with it.
2 Likes
Thatâs nice. Still my opinion that it sucks and always continue to suck. 
Outside of it being a Cold War in Vanilla. PLEASE, give one example where it was done well outside of the Cold war to justify pvp existing
And mine is that youâre wrong.
There, weâe accomplished nothing doing this your way.
2 Likes