Review of War Within Story: No hope for faction conflict?

It might be better, but it wont be good. And that is not your fault or a failing.

But what about what came before? If you just abruptly end the war by ‘clearing the madness’ you set everything that happened before as the total of it. And that can’t be equal. The only way to have equal losses before that is to mirror them. And that feels forced and would be terrible writing. So, someone is going to have lost more and that will feel bad. And then even if you managed to perfectly balance loses while not being mirrored, it is still going to feel to players like they lost more. Lose bias is hardwired into humans. So, everyone would still feel like the lost more. And of course the ‘madness has cleared, we have peace’ wouldn’t really feel like a resolution for all the previous fighting.

I respect your thought going into it. But, I really just don’t think there is a way to make and ending that doesn’t feel bad for most, if not all the players.

I think the problem I have with most military conflict between the factions is not because they are an existential crisis. It is because of all the other external existential crisis going on. Scourge trying to wipe out the world, giant dragon literally ripping the world apart, Old gods threatening to take over the world, Burning Legion trying to destroy the planet, etc., etc.

It makes the ‘kill the guy that you know you will need to save you tomorrow’ attitude seem unrealistic.

2 Likes

Also if you count all the raids where in story Alliance and Horde team up, it massively outnumbers every battle they faught against each over.

WoW is “advertised” as 2 factions fighting each over, but when you actually break it down and get into the core of the game, it’s not really like that at all. In fact, it’s almost the opposite.

I mostly agree. In WoW, conflict between the factions seems to work best with a cold war rather than open warfare. If Blizzard ever did a new RTS Warcraft game, I think that an open faction conflict could be better portrayed. But with the limitations that an MMORPG has, both for story and gameplay, I’m not sure if an open war between the factions would be a good thing.

The one point I disagree with you on is this.

I hope I am not misinterpreting what you are talking about and if I am I apologize. If you are suggesting that a faction war should not happen because it will leave one said feeling bitter regardless of how the faction conflict is balanced, then I disagree with that being a reason to avoid a faction war.

My reasoning, people are bitter when their favorite playable race is not displayed prominently and another is, when their chosen city doesn’t get an upgrade and another does, and/or when a character gets spotlight while another does not. Are their concerns valid, absolutely. Should they ask for something they enjoy more, of course. Should that prevent Blizzard from doing something, no. Attempting to please everyone pleases no one. Some people will not like it, and they have every right not to.

For example, I hated the Alliance campaign in Warcraft 3. The congratulations, you lose, moments were infuriating for me. But, Warcraft 3 is still a great game that many people enjoy, and I do not want them to lose something they enjoy.

Simple: “When the [other faction] stops attacking us! They [attacked/were clearly about to attack] and so we had to take action! We’d be happy to negotiate instead, but they ruined the chances! Blame [other faction], not [my faction]!”

Eeeeeh, I disagree. My argument: most of human history. We’re a fractious people, often allying, fighting, allying, and fighting again.

Now, I do absolteely think there should be plenty of OG Jaina-type characters involved, who quite sensibly ask why we can’t all just get along. And diehard faction partisans, who can’t see things from the other faction’s POV and are thus doomed to keep the cycle of hatred going. And plenty of characters in between - those who bear the other side no ill will but whose loyalty to their faction wins out, those who will fight for their side’s objectives but do so as nonlethally as possible (and I’d love to have some option for players to do this, too), those with dear friends on the other faction who will try to protect each other as much as they can, etc. There’s a ton of character stories buried in there - heroes, villains, and those who could go either way!

Actually, I think it would be pretty fun to have opposing faction characters build up a rivalry, and reference it as they grudgingly and/or respectfully work together against a common foe. A sort of “Let’s go kill that demon - but don’t think this means I’m giving up my stance on [territorial dispute]!” and “Haha, stupid demon! That’s how getting hit by [rival’s signature attack] feels like!”

Speaking of, that’s something I would like to see more in faction conflict narratives - respect, even if grudging, shown to the other side. Even if it’s in a mission briefing like “Go collect 10 enemy insignias. But don’t underestimate the enemy captain - she beat a pit lord with her bare hands back during the Legion invasion. lowers voice …and has a mean left hook. clears throat Dismissed!”

“But do I need him, and him in particular? And he’s trying to kill me - well, the world needs me to save it tomorrow, too! So go tell him to back down instead! If [other faction] didn’t start these fights, we wouldn’t have this problem in the first place!”

5 Likes

No. Part of the reason it is bad is that it will leave both sides feeling bitter. Both sides will feel like they lost more. It is a bad experience all the way around.

Yes. But there are some big, notable differences here. Specifically, time.

Historically smaller groups who even hated each other have often banded together to face a threat to both. Then after the threat is gone and time passes and friction starts to build back up. Eventually they end up fighting again. Yes, that happens.

But WoW has not had that time. We go, maybe a couple/few years between the world has almost been destroyed. Last year a dragon and a bunch of cultists tried to burn the world.

Give WoW a 20, 30, 40, etc. year time skip and tell me tensions are back. Sure, 100% on board with that.

Seems like ascribing more rational behavior to factions and peoples with even more complicated circumstances than real life humans. Both entities, Horde and Alliance, should run the gamut of personalities and behaviors. Maybe honorable Joe Orc feels conflicted about honorable Jane Human, but she serves under Tyrannical Herbert Dwarf who is slaughtering your tauren friends because they had the audacity to exist on ancestral land where the Keepers once built an outhouse.

Where I’m at mostly is that poor writing isn’t going to please anyone, faction conflict or no, but this game’s entire premise is that faction conflict. It is a bit of a rug pull to abandon that in pursuit of just another one of a number of generic stock fantasy heroes vs. monologuing villains.

6 Likes

“Dragon? I didn’t see any dragons in this neck of [Arathi highlands, Ashenvale – well, okay, I saw a green one, but she’s on our side–, Stranglethorn, Hillsbrad, etc], only those aggressive [other faction] brutes! Why do you want me to surrender when they’re the ones who are wrong?”

“Besides, all that cultist-whatevers in whats-that-place did was drain our resources - and that’s exactly why we need to get [other faction] out of here, so that we can recover and gather more of our resources!”

6 Likes

I think that was true in Vanilla. I don’t really think it is still true today.

There were enough forces and people involved that the world would generally know what just happened. Especially since it is established that Horde and Alliance forces are severally weakened.

And Blizzard has even acknowledged the issue in game. Setting up for the siege on Orgrimmar in BfA there are orcs talking about working with Alliance again.

Knowing there is a distant, important conflict is still a ways away from feeling that it negates your own local concerns.

“And that’s exactly why we need the resources of [zone] to recover, and can’t let [other faction] take it away from us! We are perfectly peaceful - if [other faction] didn’t keep taking what is rightfully ours, there’d be no conflict at all!”

3 Likes

Put another way, into some real-world context:

“Look, I hear you that global warming is going to be a problem in the future, but my problem right now is that I want to drive my big gas-guzzling truck around for some fun with my friends.”

3 Likes

The new Anthology description caught my eye:

Across the world, old hatreds are rising and Xal’atath remains at large, at work on her own machinations.

So maybe the faction war isnt totally dead yet.

The Faction War only works in the form of a lack of trust between the factions, with a mix of hidden diplomatic talks, and isolationist extremists.

Instead of expanding into each other’s territory, if both sides instead pulled back and put up walls, then the players will be given a mix of factional hoo-rahs within those walls, while also being the only characters who can cross the no-man’s-land and interact with the other faction.

With neither side wanting to be the first to strike, (and thus be seen as the aggressor, instead of the aggrieved) the “war” becomes seeing actions taken against either side as originating from the other.

If the Orcs build a nice fortress, then all of a sudden it’s attacked by Quillboar, then obviously the commander will bellow “How cowardly! The Alliance goaded the Quillboar into testing our defenses, show the pigs no mercy so the Humans know we aren’t to be messed with!” All losses are from the 3rd party trying to get one side to throw the first match to light the drums of kerosene, and the PC goes around trying to put out the little fires before they explode.

Have the PC defend their settlement and thwart the third party and be honored by their faction for it, but also have the cool heads in both factions, send the PC to meet with their counterparts on the other side and keep the peace. The Quillboar acted on their own, and the Alliance isn’t responsible. Make the mission a stealth mission where you have to sneak into the opposite faction’s fortress to deliver the missive to your contact.

The reason why Horde partisans hated BfA, is because it forced us to choose between loyalty to the Horde, or to Anduin. Few who play Horde, do so to be told what to do by Anduin Wrynn. Likewise, I would never expect an invested Alliance player take a single quest from Sylvanas Windrunner. Instead of having us basically choose between our faction and subservience to the other, just have us represent the best of our faction, who won’t resort to outright evil for a pittance of 20 gold and a green helmet.

Like, N’zoth was supposed to be the master of manipulation. The fact that he couldn’t be written to be feeding both sides a thanksgiving helping of paranoia and pride to keep them from cooperating against him is the real shame of BFA. No mass killings, no evil Warchief. You had an Old God whose entire strategy was deception, and honestly I don’t think he lied to anyone except his own servants. The Horde and Alliance were simply written as being so eager to kill one another pointlessly, that he didn’t need to do anything.

Yeah yeah, some will say that my idea isn’t a Faction War, it’s just both factions having their own stories separate from each other instead of working shoulder to shoulder for the good of the planet and—

Well yeah.

Boil it all down and that’s all everyone seems to be dancing around and avoiding directly asking for. Blue wants to build blue bases, and advance blue agendas. Red wants to build red bases, and advance red agendas. So long as a Human Sword doesn’t go into an Orc, and a Orcish Axe doesn’t decapitate any Humans, I’d say job’s done.

5 Likes

I get where you are going. I do. But, I don’t think it is comparable.

The threats Azeroth has faced and are more in your face. People like to ignore climate change because they think they aren’t doing it or they are listening to politicians saying it isn’t happening. It happens slowly enough that people can ignore it. I don’t think that can be said of the world ending threats Azeroth has faced.

Even if a particular group of soldiers did not personally go, they had troops pulled out of their areas to go help. They know about dragons. They know how close it is. And their commanders certainly do. And the pressure from the top levels is peace.

A bar fight level conflict, sure. People can be stupid. Actual military engagements (especially with word from the top being no) I find a stretch.

And again, add a few decades time skip and I am ALL for tensions being back. Give people a few decades with no world ending threat and absolutely they forget all that past helping each other just so they can get theirs. I just don’t think it fits the current story to have any level of military engagements.

But on Azeroth, you get told there is a new existential threat to your very existence every… What, year or two? Sometimes you get lucky and catch a five year break between demigods intent on ending all life?

And of course, they never succeed. And it’s not the armies of the Horde or Alliance that end those threats; it’s a band of mercenaries (the PCs) often acting under the guidance of some neutral party (Khadgar, the dragons, Tirion) or faction-loyal person who has temporarily taken a neutral stance (Malfurion, Thrall).

So the dragons need help? That’s great, and I’m sure the world’s Champions of Azeroth, Garrison Commanders, Maw Walkers, and whatever will be able to handle that, just like they always do.

But yesterday my town’s water supply dried up, and that human town over there has access to fresh water.

Or those trolls seem friendly today, sure, but it wasn’t that long ago they were part of a vast military campaign that tried to sweep me and my family off the face of Azeroth. And it wasn’t the first, second or even third time.

And while the Champion/Commander/Walker might say things are fine now, they also said things were fine after the last Global Super Power war, and two years later they were much less than fine. And why should I even listen to the C/C/W, or Anduin/Thrall? They were palling around with these guys just months before they tried to invade my homeland and kill my babies.

The annual threat to all life on Azeroth quickly seems less relevant when it actually does become an annual thing that always gets averted, and will feel less important than the threats or potential threats right across the river. Especially if those potential threats weren’t so potential a couple years ago.

4 Likes

Great point. These world-ending threats become a lot of “Boy who cried Wolf” if every time they happen, the end result is the world hasn’t changed at all, and capable hands solved the problem before anyone knew what was going on.

Blizzard’s desire to make the old world “evergreen” and resist any change whatsoever became apparent in their “Azeroth Travels” series, where the characters walked through every zone, and basically just described everything as though time completely stopped during Cataclysm. Borders haven’t shrunk, cities that were destroyed haven’t been rebuilt, and nothing grows, moves, or changes.

I’m surprised there aren’t more Azerothians with conspiracies surrounding the Bronze dragonflight keeping everyone frozen in time-loops if they aren’t on some island that hasn’t been discovered yet.

7 Likes

Which is kind of my point.

Yes, but also not alone. There are usually Horde and Alliance troops providing support. Or, quite often being the cannon fodder.

Only to a point. We usually get some major loss. Take just TWW. A city was destroyed at the start of it.

Look, I am not saying everyone is just super friendly. That is silly. But the leaders actively trying to stop any conflicts plus all the world threats just makes any kind of military conflict less likely and much more likely to be stopped VERY quickly.

The forced faction wars muddies the water a bit. Because there has been recent massive faction conflict. But that is logically going to get stamped down fairly quickly with the current state of the world. Violent tensions between the facts have an expiration date. They cannot go on forever with constant world ending threats over and over. There needs to be time between them.

1 Like

Bfa was 7 years ago my dude. That is not recent.

1 Like

World ending threats at this point be like

Calmly eating breakfast, sipping coffee, watching the local news and messenger runs in saying theres a new super mega world ending threat

And everyone’s like I’m hungry and cranky, leave me alone. Farmer bob can handle it for a while. Besides, the villian is still talking and laying out his entire plan

When everything is a World Ending Threat, than everything ironically stops being an actual threat. They loose all meaning. You reach that point eventually where nobody cares anymore.

3 Likes

It is all the worse because every. single. one. of them read from the same Villains Handbook. They might as well be piñatas with a looped recording.

“Fools! Your world will burn! You are too late! Enough! This cannot be!”

7 Likes

I stopped counting after the four thousandth time I’ve heard this from Local wants to end the world again threat. It’s stale, it’s old. It’s something straight out a 80’s low budget horror movie

3 Likes