1 Like
I do, because it is not an uncommon discussion. People like to boil things down into false binaries, so when I say âfaction conflictâ many immediately rush to All Out War of the Bigdumbs (BFA) and Mopey Sadsack Therapy Hour (post-BFA) as the only two options. I donât understand the myopic perspective re: this subject when we have several expansions and the base game that executed it well.
If we had been given the expansion the BFA trailer teased, I think it would have been a banger.
8 Likes
The farther I get from MoP, the more I like it. I had complaints at the time (and I still stand by those complaints!), but it - and the Krasarang patch in paticular- did a lot of things well, especially in presenting the story through gameplay.
- The progression in Krasarang was great - exploring the place before the faction armies arrived, then helping the faction armies establish their bases, see those bases expand, and take the fight to the other actionâs base. It, and the base progression on the Isle of Thunder, really felt like an evolving story in a way that future expac implementations never recaptured. (Argus was close.) The Krasarang bases and the faction warâs effects on the land felt more meaningful because I had seen what it was like before.
- The pacing of the Krasaran-based campaign was perfect - based on reputation, so I could actively work toward unlocking the next story tidbit, and the breakpoints were spaced so that these new story chapters were available only days apart - instead of months and months apart, where youâve forgotten the fine details and grown distant from the involved NPCs by the time their next appearance rolls around.
- Interlocking stories - it was so much fun to do the Horde and Alliance Divine Bell questchains, to see many of the same events but with added context. Each side was an internally cohesive full narrative, one which provided reasons for the distrust they held for the other side, but doing both sides gave the clearest picture of the overall story and emphasized the tragedy of these people charging into a conflict that did not have to happen and yet was inevitable because of their understandable human flaws. (Except for Garrosh. He was over-the-top.)
- Nazgrimâs and Taylorâs squads as recurring faces across multiple zones, as people that I met and worked with as individuals, and who I could watch as they reacted to the faction war escalating.
- The inclusion of so many characters and groups from the old world, even though the expac setting was this newly discovered land of Pandaria. Dezco and his Sunwalkers following a vision, night elf Sentinels and scholars searching for a cure for their newfound mortality, orcs and humans wanting to deny each other the resources of the continent - there were plots and goals to focus on even if one didnât like the Pandaria theme.
In fact, the thing that upsets me the most is that these same techniques werenât used in future plots. Pandaria and the pandaren never clicked for me, so I remember that in late MoP I was so eagerly awaiting seeing this same format of storytelling get applied to other cultures and zones that I did care about. But so much off it was not carried forward, for⌠reasons? sigh
7 Likes
Because i am an evil annoying goat! and a lil devil bad girl! 
I am not entirely sure that the narrative of âwe are at warâŚbut we always come together because there is a threat, but then we go back to war againâ is a doing it âwellâ i find this narrative getting pretty old very fast.
Maybe the problem is, that there is only 2 acual powers in the story, i feel like;, we sadly get to the point when having just Horde and Alliance, and the rest are just getting rekt by both everytime is a problem, we are losing more and more actual factions despite these 2 over the years and in the end it just makes it bit ridiculous.
2 Likes
Oh, right! I totally forgot about that nickname 
1 Like
Still salty probably the best opening cinematic we got just lied to us
Poor cinematic team itâs not on them, i prefer their story over the writing teamâs version we got.
9 Likes
Per a Chris Metzen Podcast: that BFA cinematic was the last thing he worked on before retiring. He also had no idea about Sylvanus burning Teldrassil or what her story was. This tells me there was massive rewrites when Afrisabi took over, I really wish we could know what the original script was.
7 Likes
Yes, people often boil things down to binaries. No argument there. But to be fair, when most people come along and refer to âfaction conflictsâ they are referring to the wars. Perhaps because they are also reducing it to a binary. But, most people saying faction conflict mean faction war, so you should not be surprised when people see faction conflict and think faction war.
Well, letâs be honest here. Vanilla and several expansion did have a decent state of tension. I fully agree. But that was always going to be temporary. It could not continue without stretching credulity.
How many times can the factions come together to save the world before even the relatively minor tensions Vanilla had start to seem unreasonable? How many times do you believe Horde and Alliance soldier are âin the trenches togetherâ one moment and actively killing each other the next? The reality is the helping each other survive against world ending threats over and over meant that logically their would be less and less animosity.
Blizzard thought they could keep that animosity by having wars between the factions. But, of course that was just a doomed exercise and made it worse. Between what should logically happen with the factions and player fatigue with working together one moment and fighting each other the next, the faction conflict has played out. It just canât really work anymore. It has to be resolved.
Maybe there were ways they could have kept more tension for longer, but that is well and truly gone. The game is beyond that at this point.
Completely disagree. It was never going to work.
Yes, Blizzard tripped on the starting line. Yes, they face planted half way through it. But, even if that hadnât happened, they were still running straight for a brick wall.
You could have an exciting start to a faction war. You might even be able to keep it interesting for a little while. But you canât end it in a way that satisfies anyone. The factions have to end up in the same place they started. Neither side can win. Players are always going to be disappointed with the end.
So an idea came to me, and I think I might even make my own thread about it. I think it would actually make sense for the factions to have a type of sportsmen rivalry with each other at this point. They would complete and fight each other but as a sort of sparing.
In game this could be represented as getting KOed and waking up at a healer NPC from dieing in WM. BGs could be renamed to Training Grounds as joint military exercises to strengthen each others forces.
All this would require is some minor tweaking of NPC dialog to make the PVP in game current in the story.
As much as people here might not like it, the faction conflict story serves PVP the same way the main story always served PVE.
In doing this, it appeases both pro faction conflict people and people tired of the faction war.
1 Like
Probably the best direction in general. Kind of like how Gnomes and Goblins have a rivalry that is almost friendly.
WM is purely a game mechanic and not something that really needs lore justification. From a lore point of view, fights in WM can be seen as a few random mercs getting aggressive for any number of reasons. Not something reflective of the factions overall state.
Also, not necessary. BGs are time locked. From a lore point of view they were an event that happened in the past. They are over and done. Alterac Valley is at peace, there is no active conflict in Arathi Basin, Warsong Gulch has been over for a long time, etc., etc. They are playable purely as a game mechanic. You should think of them kind of like Chromie time, they are in the past. We just can experience them.
I understand that they are a game mechanic, and do not reflect the lore. My point is they could reflect the lore and game mechanic.
But either way, yes the idea would be a kinda thing similar to how Gnomes and Goblins general relations are with each other with a military spin.
Sylvanas gave me hype.
Also garlic pasta with lobster is the best italian dish I ever eaten.
Beyond the lore scope here too, but both Krasarang and IoT gave us some of the best world PvP experiences since classic. The shared questing areas within a faction conflict, the PvP or PvE quests in IoT, the limited space, forcing ground mounts or limiting flying space, all made some of the best back and forths I saw in a long time and nothing has surpassed it, or even gotten close, since. The setting and narrative enhanced the game play to a huge degree.
7 Likes
I would quibble here - this would only stop faction conflict if the faction conflict was based solely on hate. Some of the conflicts are merely âhey, itâs the other faction, kill themâ, but many of the faction conflicts are triggered by a disagreement over something tangible that has no easy out.
- The night elves cannot keep Ashenvale forest untouched and let the orcs cut it down for lumber and hunt enough game to feed a growing metropolis.
- The Frostwolves cannot keep their new home and harmony with the elements and let the dwarves excavate it for archaeological research.
- Humanity canât slay all the undead to release and purify their souls and let the Forsaken nation grow and thrive.
- The Alliance canât guarantee the Horde will never be a threat to Alliance cities again and let the Horde be an equal world power.
Many of these have multiple avenues of compromise that could be reached - but not everyone is going to agree on which of those avenues to take. And since the results are incompatible and some degree of irreversible, supporters and opponents of each will be thrown into⌠(drumroll) conflict!
Now, if the sides are about evenly matched (as playable factions should be), these scenarios easily lead to deadlock where neither side has the force necessary make their plan a reality. And I donât think thatâs a bad thing, especially for a long-running MMO as compared to a movie that needs closure - thereâs plenty of story and drama to be had with characters displaying their deeply-held beliefs, struggling for them, making minor gains, facing setbacks, and either vowing to continue the fight or having a change of heeart and leaving it to the mass of other characters who are still dedicated.
These conflicts donât have to end in total victory for one side - which is the big issue with faction wars, to me. These stories work great as character motivations and side stories, but making them the central focus of an entire expac story demands major shakeups (can be fun, but very iffy) and a final conclusion (bad idea - it forces someone to be a winner and someone to be a loser).
11 Likes
You are imposing your own creative limitations on others. Even speaking in terms of realism, holding grudges over petty things is deeply human.
4 Likes
Iâll take a shot at it. /cracks knuckles
After the events of Legion there a relative peace settled between the two factions. Sadly, the peace came to an abrupt end with the discovery of Azerite. This newly found mineral allowed both factions to empower their armies in many ways. When infused into explosives it would increase the yield by magnitudes. When inlaid into weapons and armor it would increase durability and strength to be far stronger than before. When laced into potions it could vastly improve mana for spell casters or the health and natural abilities of others. Given the potential to shift the balance of power both factions raced to find and mine this new resource.
Unfortunately, large deposits were rare. Only three were discovered with the Arathi Highlands, Thousand Needles, and Silithus being. The race to claim this new resource vastly increased tensions between the Alliance and the Horde with figures like Danath Trollbane and Nazgrel being among the most aggressive. Anduin and Sylvanas attempted to deescalate the situation but a spark that would ignite the conflict was inevitable.
That spark came with the supposed bombing of the Vindicar by a Goblin infiltrator. Whether he actually planted a bomb or whatever equipment he had with simply exploded (as often happens with goblin tech) may never be known. And regardless, Danath saw it as an excuse to drive all Horde forces from the Arathi Highlands. His attacks prompted a response from the Horde which brought a combined force of Forsaken and Blood Elves to march on Stromgarde. However, the Horde vastly underestimated Danathâs command ability and the skill of the warriors he had under his command; many of them being veterans of the second war. Empowered further by Azerite this force wiped out the force sent against them and began a march on the Undercity.
After being advised to do so by Genn Greymane and Turalyon Anduin goes to support Danathâs campaign. Sylvanas, knowing that her forces are outnumbered and out matched, orders the use of the Blight. Using potions derived from Azerite the Alliance forces simply walk through it. Saurfang gathers a force to quickly come to the Forsakenâs aid while Baine marshales a vast army to reinforce them. In need of transporting this large army the Tuaren chieftain learns that Volâjin had been in discussions with the Zandalari for the use of their navy. With the promise of reinforcements Sylvanas prepares her cities defenses.
Que the Battle of Azeroth cinematic
Alliance forces manage to break the outer gates of the Undercity when they learn of the arrival of the Zandalari navy carrying Horde reinforcements. Rather than be caught between two armies Anduin orders the Alliance forces to retreat. They fall back to Thoradinâs wall where they are joined by reinforcements from Ironforge and Stormwind. Both armies settle in for a stalemate rather than attack.
From here the war shifts to being about out maneuvering each other with the Horde wanting to secure the aid of the Zandalari navy and the Alliance seeking to gain the Kul Tiras fleet to match them. Azerite would eventually be discovered to have a major flaw. In that not only is it the blood of Azeroth itself but it also causes increased aggression in those that use for prolonged periods. The expansion would then focus on purifying the Azerite so that it becomes inert and allows a de-escalation in the conflict. The war would end with the several members of the House of Nobles becoming so enraptured by the power of Azerite that they claim control of Stormwind when Anduin seeks to make peace with the Horde. In a show of good will the Horde sends its champions to liberate the city from the House of Nobles. The battle ends with Stormwind being freed and tensions between the two factions returning to a cold war status.
Would this have worked?
2 Likes
I have seen enough Stromgarde RP and fan fiction to know Quintio Lentulus Ecidia of the XII Venuleius Legion would proclaim himself Princeps Imperator of the Pax Stromgarda New Alliance in a heart beat.
4 Likes
I get that. But how many times does the world almost get destroyed and we save each other before it is arguments over a diplomatic table rather than swords on the front line immediately? How many times do Horde and Alliance troops and captains fight next to each other before they balk at fighting each other.
The literally barely surviving world ending events is going to make the taking up arms against each other feel forced from a story point of view.
This is kind of in line with what I was saying. The Horde/Alliance factions shouldnât really even be involved. It is one thing for a little character driven disagreement story. But, overall the factions have been FAR to reliant on each other over and over and over and over again, and will be in the future, for it to feel like it makes sense to turn to fighting.
I am pretty cynical when it comes to people, but even I have a hard time buying:
That guy was in the âfoxholeâ with me saving the world last week, and I am pretty sure we are going to need each other next week, letâs kill him.
In a word: No.
Look, I will give you kudos for trying to come up with how a faction war could start with less of a villain. I wont go into each step of it. There are minor problems, but not unworkable ones. And it is probably a better outline that what we had, especially for motivations. So, seriously, a salute for your thought and effort.
However, the issue is not how the war starts. There are ways to make that work. Instead, as it always has been, the ending is the issue. How do you end a faction war? Neither side can win. The status quo has to be maintained.
Blizzard did it in both wars by having the Horde lose their capital to their militant members and had the Alliance help them reclaim it. Your endingâŚ
It just a mirror of the previous faction war endings. It is the Alliance losing their capital to their militant members and the Horde helping them reclaim it. That was not a satisfying end either time it was done. It would not be a satisfying end mirrored.
The fundamental problem is a faction war cannot be won by either side. In a war both sides end up losing things. But neither side can get justice for that. Players on both sides want to win, but neither side can. You canât just mirror wins/losses because that feels VERY forced. Blizzard tried to deal with it by having the Alliance lose more before the end and then say they âwonâ because they sieged the enemy capital. But the nature of an MMO meant the Horde players had to participate just as much, so it wasnât really the Alliance winning. Alliance players justifiably felt like they played the punching bag for the whole expac only to then have to have the Horde rebels save them at the end. The Alliance didnât win against the Horde. Horde players felt upset because their city got sieged and some of their characters got killed. It was a lose, lose proposition. Neither side got to win, both sides got to lose. Reversing the players roles doesnât change. It is still a lose, lose.
There were a lot MORE problems in the faction war expacs than just the ending, and a lot of them could have been done well. But the ending cannot be won by either sides, they are always lost by both. Which, to be fair, is pretty accurate to RL wars. But, we donât play games to have our teeth kicked in over and over like RL does to us. We want endings we can win. And an expac that makes everyone feel like they lost to the other side is only going to make players feel bad.
2 Likes
All fair points.
The ending to what I wrote was rushed, Iâm doing this between classes at the moment. I did have another idea for an ending but Iâm not sure if it would be any better.
With Azerite making both sides much more aggressive several minor factions concoct a plan to purify Azerite on a large scale. It involves drawing the bulk of both factionâs militaries into a major naval battle where champions attempt to purify the Azerite being used mid battle. In other words, the goal is not about one side losing or winning but about saving both sides from going mad. The war would end soon after with an armistice and a return to a cold war status.
2 Likes
Iâve seen enough small town rivalries, political family meltdowns, and history in general to know this is something intrinsic to human nature.
Most wars arenât pursued to an existential threshold, and neither should Warcraftâs be in a two faction game. You can have winners and losers, but the stakes need to be smaller and it should be give and take. The only thing that would beggar disbelief at this point is the tepid characterization of Warcraftâs modern cast, but that itself is a failure of the story as well.
4 Likes