I feel like Ret should be able to remove mortal wounds effects. It fits the class fantasy perfectly
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You do realize by removing this, you are removing an 8 second cooldown snare removal in pvp? As it works with Hallowed Ground pvp talent, every time you drop a consecration with blade of justice, it removes all snares.
What?
The rework is fine all around, they ran out of time and some area could have been better defined but it did “solve” what they identified as the spec problems.
It’s the PVP modifier and changes that makes it “bad” in PVP not the rework itself.
It’s a pretty important distinction to make.
You have a problem with their PVP philosophy and balancing, that’s separate from what the rework did and is.
I’m not shy when it comes to pointing out when Blizz doesn’t listen to it’s community but with regard to Ret, someone in there genuinely did listen and looked up what were the recurring complaints and irritants.
And they worked toward solving them or a least alleviate them when the constraint wouldn’t allow them to “solve” it (Divine steed / mobility for example).
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For PVP: Some of Rets damage has returned but not excessive(PVE Ret feels quite strong), surviablity into magic damage seems fair, but Vs physical damage Ret is quite weak. Need to be exceptionaly careful/lucky Vs pet classes, hunters, warriors, rogues, and the the new scariest spec for me, WW monk. Getting caught without all defensives or using them incorrectly will get Ret heavily punished. Stay kinda close to your healer and protect them at all cost to have a chance to find and opening to complete your burst rotation. I did have a good time playing last night, just need to remember the ZuG ZuG behavior is a big risk. In BGs I found success allowing a melee or two to chase me to my ranged teammates, then nuking them with help is more effective than trying to sit on enemy range or in the melee cleave pile.
“I feel like Ret should be able to remove mortal wounds effects. It fits the class fantasy perfectly”
Agreed, that is kind of what I was thinking when I mentioned a counter to it. Judgement’s of the Pure is already most of the way there, although baking it into that particular talent would be problematic because of the lack of control and dispel protections.
“You do realize by removing this, you are removing an 8 second cooldown snare removal in pvp? As it works with Hallowed Ground pvp talent, every time you drop a consecration with blade of justice, it removes all snares.”
I actually was not thinking about that, I was coming more from a PvE perspective on that one and a desire to see Divine Hammer be a viable option because Consecrated Blade is problematic in some ways in PvE. That said, Hallowed Ground has never felt particularly great to me, a poor band-aid for bigger issues like HoF Dispel, Steed not breaking effects, loss of Emancipation, Long Arm, etc. If PvP talents were in a healthy spot for us, it would likely fall out of use fairly often. I’m fine with it staying, just given a forced choice of fixing Divine Hammer and removing Consecrated Ground or keeping status quo, I’d take the former. That isn’t really a choice that should be required though, they are already on a choice node and I think Divine Hammer should provide a good DPS bump over Consecrated Blade if used correctly but Consecrated Blade should remain for those who prefer the more automatic playstyle and (with your addition) for PvP purposes.
“Blizzard takes 6 years to incompetently rework the spec?”
Sort of aligning with what others have said, the rework was actually pretty solid with regard to most of our issues in PvE and I think really did a good job overall. The issue was that it was a bit rushed and it seems that someone or a group at Blizzard has a really rigid idea of what paladins should be and has remained unmoving on that for years somehow. Unfortunately that idea of what it should be seems somewhat incompatible with what is necessary for things to be healthy in PvP, this seems to exist to an extent for most hybrid classes, shamans for example are often hurting in this area too.
There is some fine tuning that is needed to get us close to an ideal state for PvE but I honestly think the class is closer than it has ever been to it and the changes needed are remarkably small. PvP is another problem entirely and will require a fair bit more care and probably requires diverging from what Blizzard seems to always want us to be, that is a fight I don’t know how to win. Every time ret feels good in PvP the community loses their mind over some aspect of it, and often with some valid points, but that is usually a result of it being the only way it can work while we are stuck in this box.
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I think it should be said that the Devs who were on the rework did a better job than I think I have ever seen for paladins. They haven’t gotten enough credit and gratitude for that. There were numerous threads I engaged in during the rework where suggestions were given and then the ability was added which is kind of unprecedented in my memory. Divine Hammer was one and Vengeful Wrath was actually one I specifically brought up at one point and was amazed to see added. I referenced how satisfying the guaranteed crit on Hammer of Wrath was during WotLK because it made it feel like a proper execute. There were other examples of similar feedback being quite quickly added to the PTR and many of those things stuck through to implementation and have been large parts of what still feels good. They just ran out of time and some things fell to the wayside. That combined with some tuning issues led to the public outcry and kneejerk nerfs that have left us a bit hobbled but easily fixed.
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Yes, let paladins remove Mortal Strikes!
The rework(for pve), without reguarding future nerfs, was a success. More cleave, more Dots, more range(I think), more tanky, fluid rotation with many rotation options where you can add or remove a bunch of buttons from your rotation on preferance while still being viable. I remember how great the Burst AoE was feeling, not just the huge dps, and the ST build was providing satisfaction for Raid too. Tuning changed a ton since, especially for pvp, had the pvp specific nerf train not demolished Ret for the last few patchs we would probably see more than the current 0 Rets from the U.S. at or above 2400 in any rated pvp content(again, for U.S. players).
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Fully agree. Ret rework made ret extremely fun and far more fluid overall. Without giving ret a gap closer, they found (imo) an even better way to help ret with the mobility issue/reaching targets issue which was more range, and that was a very cool solution. Ret did get more mobility too, but the range increase was big. On top of having a really nice talent tree overall and just good gameplay I think the spec is in a great spot in terms of that. Performance wise is always up to tuning, but the only issue with that is losing so much ST when going aoe, I think that is a fine trade off but I am pretty sure ret suffers from it the most? So maybe that gap could be closed a bit but I think ret is in the best state it’s been in a while regarding gameplay.
In PvP its maybe a different story though I haven’t played ret this season in pvp yet so I am not sure. After the buffs I have seen more rets playing though.
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Ret PVP is feast or famine. So as you mentioned we have some range, and now great burst if we are ignored. Unfortunatly, compared to Ret, having more CC, defencives that cannot be purged, mortal stikes, disarm, self healing in their damage rotation that isnt pvp nerfed, and instant mobility, gives some melee an edge over Rets tools that are counterable and easy to see, its telegraphed damage, and range. If you get into trouble and someone isnt there to save you, there is no retreating from DH, DK, Rogue, Monk, Warrior. Ret cannot afford bad character placement because they have no instant mobility to match other melee, not to mention some casters. However, with good communication/help from your teammates and sound gameplay decitions, Ret can pump damage if allowed to. Blessing of Spellwarding doesnt even prevent the paladin with it already active from getting feared, so you really need to be careful. Pvp specific Defensive and healing nerfs are felt greatly. We are like a slower devistation evoker with less effective CC and slightly weaker damage profile.
Honestly, as weird as it sounds, my only major complaint in PvE is that I want more playstyle options on Ret, lol.
I think that the overall design of Ret, especially in Mythic+, is fantastic. It’s just when you get into the nitpicky parts, it becomes problematic.
I’d assume the WoWhead Ret Reflection post wil mainly focus on PvE(Raids) but I assume the basics will boil down to:
Leveling: (Whether you or anyone here personally cares about leveling is besides the point, it’s an issue with the game as a whole.)
- Going from mob to mob is not a fluid experience as a Ret Paladin, because Ret has multiple ranges on all their abilities, Divine Steed has too long of a cooldown, and there’s no instant reward for killing an enemy that offers experience or honor.
Mythic+/Raiding:
Class:
- Ret still has no unique utility
- BoSac and BoP need better raid options or talent choices that alter gameplay
- Divine Steed isn’t engaging gameplay
- Class Tree needs to provide more options, Divine Toll is fun but there needs to be other choices
Spec:
- Mastery is a uninteresting stat that doesn’t scale into the late game.
- ST vs AoE is too punishing (FR vs ES, etc)
- All abilities have the same identity (Deal x Holy damage, generate 1 HP)
- Crusading Strikes vs Templar Strike needs adjustments for fluid gameplay (HP generation and flow state of abilities)
- Stat Scaling may start to effect the stats granted from AW and Crusade, hitting the stat DR, these talents may need more interesting effects that just a stat increase moving into the future
- Capstones need some polish/love
PvP:
- PvP Talents need an overhaul
- Paladins are lacking an underlining identity, heals do almost nothing
- Little to no Class Fantasy (New Auras, Blessings, Anti-Undead/Demon, etc)
- No Z-axis influence
- Weaknesses =/= Strengths, abilities becoming outdated in 2024
Bonus Point:
Being able to have an unbiased objective discussion about the range on all Ret Paladin abilities and how that effects gameplay, fantasy, and engagement.
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As I remember it nobody complained about ret having low damage in cleave situations in raid before the nerf wave finished rising. Future scaling problems would have been less of a problem if it was allowed to stay “as is”(uber powerful) going forward from 10.0.7, instead they nerfed it so much it needed buffs after it scaled badly.
Sub rogue and HDH have talents to make nearly all their damage Shadow/Chaos respectivly. Maybe Ret needs a “BoJ/FV, now has a 30yrd range”(that would probably be too powerful of a gain for pvp but I can dream) talent. Since everything else that hits hard other than Wake of Ashes already has a 30 yrd range
??? fv has a range extender. its jurisdiction
also alot of rets saw this issue a mile away. the issue was fotmer rets didnt. v ault rets “opness” came from multiple factors such as being propped up by razegath making es doing millions of damage.
the idea of a “Scaling” doesnt exist andwouldnt be the fix people think it would be for alot of reasons.
Well the issue with Paladins in terms of range is a few things:
- Does it trivialize content too much?
- This has to be the difficult, unbiased conversation about if Paladin range has swung too far and it now allows Paladins to almost completely ignore game mechanics.
- Having some range because “We are paladins!” is fine-- but how much is too much?
-
Do Paladin abilities have too many varying ranges?
- Crusader Strike = 5 yards
- Crusader’s Reprieve = 8 yards
- Templar’s Verdict = 5 yards
- Justiciar’s Vengeance = 8 yards
- Final Verdict = 20 yards
- HoJ = 10 yards
- BoJ = 12 yards
- Jurisdiction = 20 yards
- Judgement = 30 yards
- Hammer of Wrath = 30 yards
- Flash of Light = 40 yards
- Is this fluid gameplay or does this just feel like 20 years of varying ranges finally catching up to the spec?
- Does the increase range on Paladin abilities limit them from having more “fun” or “useful” game mechanics such as gap closers, snares, etc…
- This may be a bit more of a PvP issue of course, but what’s more useful, having 20 yard range on your abilities or being able to effectively peel or close a gap?
There’s a separation between what’s convenient and what’s better for the overall game.
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For M+ more range would be more beneficial Vs movement imo, the opposite is true for pvp due to line of sight issues. If your slowed and the enemy is pillar humping, all the range on Azeroth wont help as much as a gap closer that is instant and ignores snares and slows like all the teliporting, dashing, shadowstepping, charging and leaping specs have.
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It would be cool if when our Shield of Vengeance burst, that the Holy energy would AoE heal friendly units as well as doing Holy Dmg to enemies.
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Yeah, range is almost always more efficient and it’s definitely easier, but having mobility can also allow you to get in and out of fights or dangerous mechanics faster, which would accomplish the same goal, just in a different way.
If you’re also someone who thinks the skill cap on Paladins is a bit too low, usually mobility is used as a way to showcase that skill as well, so that’s also something to keep in mind.
And again, it’s not about removing all the range from Paladins in order to get an effective snare, gap closer, or whatever. A lot of classes have some range on their abilities, gap closers, and snares with these new talent trees, its about finding a better balance for Paladins that fit into their design.
We just need to know wtf that design is, cause it feels like it’s coming up pretty short in Raids and PvP, lol.
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Just the tuning changes brought Ret seventh from the top in raid. That puts like twenty nine specs below us for potential. If someone finds blinks for mage and dashing with DH disorienting, they could even find Steed a more pleasant mobility alternative. Dodging most pve mechanics doesnt require traversing very large areas too often, and doing so instantly it would seem from the logs isnt required of Ret to perform well. Unfortunately pvp is a different story. Catching up to an enemy instantly or jumping behind a pillar to hide instantly does benefit specs with instant mobility quite a bit in pvp. In pvp it’s also a notable advantage being invisible out of combat, running quickly longer than everyone with a movent CD, having two shadowsteps you can additionally use on friends, and due to simply being rogue and choosing a few talents, always running faster on foot than anyone when you’re not using a go fast ability. I’ve seen rogues actually perform well as flag carriers. If they play well, they are very quick.
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