I mean ret doesn’t seem to scale great and they are already 2k+ DPS behind.
Wait till specs start getting bis loot.
I imagine by the end of ulduar ret will be 2800-4k DPS behind growing even more behind in TOGC.
By the time icc even hits they are going to be at least 4k DPS behind, this 2 piece t10 is not going to make that up let alone make that up when others who scale get icc bis.
There is just no shot it’s that’s good.
Im a pally. Im all for ret buffs.
But can you people stop bein delusional and start with logics, arguments and a clear view on the situation ?
Warrior is not solved by ulduar ilvl whatsoever.
Warrior is still the worst CLASS, and the only warrior spec that competes with Rets is arguably a worse choice than ret for every raid, since it brings literally nothing to the raid outside of HP shout (can be provided by a warlock), and the biggest use of a warrior atm is to kick auriyayaya. Yay!
And stop arguing with warrior scaling. Just like how rets dont care that “they are so good with t10 2pcs” (rightfully so), what good is it that warriors deal good dps with ICC Arp Hardcap gear ?
Ret is super hard to balance. If ret deals the same or higher dmg than literally anyone that could otherwise compete with the raidspot, a ret would ALWAYS be the best choice, since no one else could be even close to a rets utility.
While writing this, i suddenly gained an epiphany to fix all that easily:
Just give rets a huge dmg buff, and take away the raid utility. Like a flat +30% dmg buff, and taking aura mastery/dsac takes the dmg buff away, and hand of sacrifice applys a 30 second dmg reduction debuff on the ret.
the reason they’re 2k behind is because they get rotation locked once their abilities are on you could be waiting for a long while for something to do. judgement 8 seconds, divine storm 10 seconds, crusader strike 4 seconds, consecration 10 seconds, exocrism 15 seconds. holy wrath 30 seconds. if they run through all they can get locked for 4 seconds. where as when you look at how much damage DS does do. it does about 2-3k more raw damage than CS. their 2pc really bridges that gap. they can sit there and spam DS continually as long as their 2PC procs and it can do that for 30 second straight. they will have to break from casting DS otherwise they oom, they’ll have to throw up a judgement and or Divine plea. their 2pc t10 does make their spec good. it’ll fix a lot of their short coming when they have access to it. it’ll catch them up that dps they’re missing will shove them right to the around the lower end of the upper end of the dps charts. high middled end low top end dps. especially if they have a legendary.
course you are. all rets are for buffs. thats all they ever whine about. they always complain no matter how good they are. they think they’re never doing the damage they should.
I don’t think anyone is saying they’re shocked. Pretty sure they’re just saying they want to see it fixed.
No, he didn’t ask for them to remove the T10 2-piece bonus. He’s simply asking for it to be copied to other tier sets. His whole point is about adding the effect where it isn’t present, not about taking it away from anywhere.
This is a pretty simple post and you seem to misunderstand it severely. 
This question makes no sense. Raids can be completed with groups that aren’t entirely full. A more accurate question to assess the viability of a DPS would be to ask “If our raid had ONLY this class for DPS, would hard modes be possible? Would normal modes be far more difficult?”
The only other class that would have the same answers as Paladin would be Warrior, which scales better and better as time goes on until it reaches god mode in late phases like it has in every expansion so far.
It has nothing to do with specific rank and everything to do with the fact that Retribution was always a decent or even great DPS in OG Wrath and they’re not anymore. And they don’t even need to be buffed back up to being great. They simply need to not be balanced around a 2-piece bonus they don’t have access to for the entirety of Wrath (NOT how it was in OG Wrath).
Why would that be a bad thing, exactly?
Didn’t say it would be bad. I’m asking what the consequence would be - who would be last? I’m asking you to think beyond your spec.
i know i’m the grinch that stole christmas. with my responses.
No. i’m tired of people whining and crying about diverting off of 3.3.5 end game patch yes i also realize ret doesn’t operate the way it used to pre 3.2 or 3.1 or 3.0.whatever. i do not care. vanilla got dropped into their final patches for better or worse some specs weren’t good at all some didn’t operate at all or couldn’t be played until X was out. i get it it sucks for them. but how many times does this need to be brought up. and for the community to say no, you’re drunk go away. especially if blizz did cave and give them buffs. they say they wouldn’t complain if they reverted the buffs. when icc came out. well they would fall for the first couple of weeks of phase 4 until 2pc was dropped. but when those buffs are taken out some will inevitably throw a tantrum about being nerfed. when in fact they would be reverted back to the original status. its just better to not make that change and avoid that whole scenario. the ret pink boys. do absolutely throw the biggest tantrums when they aren’t getting their way. oh god they were thrashing about in cata when gurthalak voice of the deep was procing off their seal of vengeance and blizzard came in and said hey yeah this is a bug we’re fixing this. you would have thought they had been murdered in 4k with the cries. in nearly every xpac i have played they were losing their absolute mind when they felt jilted. tweaks to their legendaries to reduce their effectiveness by a minor amount and they’d become unhinged. sorry nope no buffs. pink boys will go ballistic if they get their temp buffs undone. i don’t think they should see their t10 applied to other tier sets either. leave them be and as is.
bro, they ain’t even a pink boy. they’re a blue boy. and they absolutely get mugged in cata of one of the biggest utilities that they had to every raid. they now get to share their lust with mages who use it as their own personaly CD.
Im not a ret. Im a protpally. And you also did not read the post you quote, quite obviously.
Maybe let me reframe my question then – Why does it matter? Why is it even a part of this discussion for you?
These threads aren’t made because people want Retribution fall into some specific rank on the charts. They’re simply made because Retribution used to be decent or even great at times, and now it’s relegated to the meme spec category. Why is there so much focus on the concept of “Who would be last?” when that’s not the point?
It’s a bit frustrating to see people turn these threads into a never-ending tug of war match over rankings because they can’t or won’t understand that people simply use DPS tiers to illustrate the point. Saying “Retribution used to be B-Tier and now it’s E-Tier” isn’t a complaint about wanting to beat other specs. It’s just illustrating where Retribution currently is, relative to where it was originally.
In all of these threads about Retribution, I don’t think I’ve witnessed a single person who specifically cares if the spec is first, or about how many other specs it “beats”.
…Except for the people who oppose Retribution being fixed.
Why would it be bad for the game for Retribution to play the way it was designed to?
On the contrary, I think you probably care a decent bit. Otherwise I don’t see why you’d come into so many of these threads to oppose people asking for a change that would lead to greater parity with OG Wrath and lead to a better experience for people who want to DPS as Paladins.
It’s not a zero-sum game. Especially when we’re talking about simply making a class viable for DPS.
fine you’re prot. i’m so sorry i didn’t realize you were prot. i don’t remember seeing that in your statement. i will eat the fact you never specified you were a ret. generally a rets more often than are the ones who will whine about buffs.
but they are. they are just playing the way they are designed for 3.3.5. and i understand that sucks and hurts for them. but i am not willing to suffer endless threads of them getting nerfed in p4.
trust when i say i don’t care. i mean it. i don’t care about their feelings and what they want to have happen for them between now and p4. i say this as someone who enjoys playing ret paladin in icc with 2pc. its easy for me not to care. their feelings and opinions and dps doesn’t matter to many longer. every 2 weeks they continue to come up with some new whiner thread. i’ve lost caring in their plight.
they are plenty viable. they are just viable to stack. and we shouldn’t want that.
I quote myself from the other ret thread here:
“I dont know man, the utility aspect of paladin is a problem in itself.
Would ret deal B tier DPS, we would see ret stacking, on top of Heal/Protpally stacking that already happens.
Pally already has above average representation in most raids, my guild raid that has a maximum of 4 pallys (1 tank, 1 heal 1-2ret) is on the lower side of pallys.”
Give ret really decent dmg, we see raids with 6+ pallys as the norm, and that would be a gross overrepresentation of the class.
I can agree with that^^
But still, i believe that my argumentation is rather objective and mild.
I would like to give rets buffs, since it obviously would feel good for them, which is always desirable.
I see the problem of giving rets buffs, since then pally would have 3 specs that are desired to stack, and that would even more impact the already low amount of raidslots for others, like warriors.
I mean, weren’t raids in vanilla done with like 25 warriors?
…Which means they’re not playing the way they were designed to play.
If this is the vision the balance designers had for Retribution in early Wrath originally, this is how they would’ve played in early Wrath originally. But they didn’t. Retribution was a respectable DPS spec throughout all of OG Wrath, as they were specifically designed to be.
The only reasons I can imagine why the WoW team has let this situation emerge in Classic now are:
*gestures broadly at the colossal mountain of bugs still in the game months after launch* and the irrational “This Class has good representation” argument is a good enough copout.One of these explanations actually makes sense.
Wait, so… Fixing the spec would be bad for the game… because you don’t like seeing people spam the forums?
And just to be clear, so no one thinks I’m trying to quote you out of context:
Dismissing the criticism as a non-problem without any reasoning as to why it’s not (argumentum ergo decedo, “traitorous critic fallacy”)
Admitting that this situation feels bad for people playing Retribution (so you actually do see that there’s some problem here, but you overall think that nothing should be done because [reasons not given])
This is the only part of what you said that seems like it’s your reason why you think it would be bad for the game for Retribution to be fixed. I’m trying to understand why you disagree so much with the idea of it, and this is what you give me.
So really, is it just that you don’t want to see threads? That’s why it’s bad for the game in your opinion?
So “…i understand that sucks and hurts for them…” and “i don’t care about their feelings”
I think you’ve said plenty enough about your position here… 
You know that the situation in Classic for Retribution Paladins sucks and hurts, but you simply don’t care.
I guess the question remaining is why you want to see some players have a bad experience rather than just fixing the spec so the game is more fun for more people.
I’m just curious… Why exactly do you think that Ret Paladins being fixed would suddenly mean they get stacked? They were never S-tier DPS as far as I can recall, so there would be no point in stacking them for their damage. And their utility wouldn’t be changed (and there are diminishing returns on their utility, e.g., you don’t get 10 Pally buffs if you bring 10 Pallies)…
This seems like a pretty poor argument to keep them in a broken state to me… Not to mention, it seems to ignore the fact that class stacking has not only been a thing throughout all of Classic so far, it will continue to be a thing even in later phases.
Yes. But you know, stupid balance in the past does not equal stupid balance being good.
And honestly, the most class stacks a normal raid does nowadays is around 4 players from a singular class.
Not talking about stuff like UH dk stack for speedruns, or warlock stack for world first, since this is not of concern for most, and is unavoidable in general.
But the regular raid does not stack high, nor does the regular raid has a need to stack high.
And that is a good state of the game. And pally is already leaning to the higher end of the numbers, since the class has S+ Tier Tank and Healspecs.
And yes, that does not help the ret player at all. I totally understand that as a ret, you dont want to spec tank or heal, and even if you wanted to, your raid probably already has that slots filled.
Well if we fix ret´s dmg the delta to specs that are only brough for their dmg would shrink.
And if you have a ret, that deals “normal” dmg but has valuable abilitys, it incentivises stacking.
I´ll quote myself once again from another thread:
In our hardmode progress so far, we used Pally utility basically everywhere.
And the utility is bonkers in how strong it is.
Having an additional shield wall like dmg reduce from each pally outside of tank with Dsac+HoSac+DS insane on several hardmodes, and literally the only way to safe some suboptimal fights, or make them easyer. Take Thorim HM, the biggest risk is tanks dying from the Buster mechanic. Each extra shield wall like ability allows your dps to slack or die, otherwise your tanks get crushed at higher stacks on thorim. Supreme utility, and while other SPECS can provide similar stuff, like painsup, you can not stack those specs anywhere near the level you can stack pallys.Dsac on Freya,XT,Hodir,Thorim,Mimi,Vessax… “shield wall” on Thorim,Vessax,Mimi,Council
And i can see that this insane utility that pally brings in general is by far less impactful in non hardmode content, and that it will get less desired the more gear is stacked on the raid, since then neither tanks nor general raid needs those mechanics as much as they do now.
And by stacked i dont mean like having 10 rets in a raid.
But switching 1 rogue, the one remaining warrior, maybe a DK aswell for rets ? Surely that would be suddenly something thats absolutely viable.
Oh, why are you assuming that they’d be stacked at all then?
Since class stacking is only really a speedrun strategy standard guilds wouldn’t suddenly be recruit a ton of rets cause they moved up from D tier to C or B tier.
Since standard guilds would see the benefit of stacking rets for better hardmode progress ?
We are a standart guild, and our healers are currently discussing if some reroll from heal X to healpally, for the benefit of more cooldowns.
That same discussion is not happening for rerolling warrior/X dps to ret, because ret has abysmall dmg.
Warriors aren’t a whole lot better but you don’t hear them complaining.
Have they been stacking unholy dks for it?