My argument works with both dude…
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then I should’ve read the rest of your post
I just went and tried to look for that 2800 spell damage rogue dps video that I saw late last year, but I can’t find it now; youtube’s search bar isn’t that good
and, admittedly, I don’t remember if that video involved poisons scaling or not, and, thinking about it, the difference shouldn’t be that drastic in terms of raw dps potential, barring threat
and rogues get a vanish or two anyway, as well as improved feint(-960 threat) also helps if they’re that close to the threat cap; the practical difference should be far more than 20% due to threat mechanics alone, except on fights where threat isn’t an issue
Damnit Theloras, you’re making me all excited to play a class that I cannot presently play.
That’s really annoying.
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You need a new guild name man, I am thinking… Deus Vult is more appropriate.
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it’s not the poisons scaling - it’s the Fire PROC items scaling at 43% while wearing BiS Naxx cloth spell damage gear:
Fiery Retributer
Binds when picked up
Unique
Main Hand Sword
56 - 105 Damage Speed 1.80
(44.7 damage per second)
60 Armor
+7 Strength
Durability 90 / 90
Requires Level 60
Equip: Increased Defense +5.
Equip: Adds 2 fire damage to your melee attacks.
Blazefury Medallion
Binds when picked up
Neck
+13 Agility
+14 Stamina
+12 Fire Resistance
Requires Level 60
Equip: Adds 2 fire damage to your melee attacks.
Fiery Plate Gauntlets
Binds when equipped
Hands Plate
379 Armor
+10 Fire Resistance
Durability 45 / 45
Requires Level 53
Equip: Adds 4 fire damage to your weapon attack.
Storm Gauntlets
Binds when equipped
Hands Mail
218 Armor
+7 Intellect
+10 Fire Resistance
Durability 40 / 40
Requires Level 54
Equip: Adds 3 Lightning damage to your melee attacks.
Equip: Increases damage done by Nature spells and effects by up to 21.
that mob was missing alot of debuffs too
To be fair even if the Ret Paladin does 1/3 the DPS of what a pure could do in their place, the overall loss of raid DPS is ~2%.
Given the extra LoH, BoP, etc. that’s well within feasible limits.
Also for Feint, it’s affected by threat multipliers like BoSalv that will reduce how much threat it takes away. Alliance Rogues are more looking at it taking away 400-530 threat depending on if they have the AQ Feint or not.
1/3rd?
added utility from an extra paladin making up for most of the remaining 2/3rds?
you’re really overvaluing that stuff; thats like saying 1 dps+paladin buffs&utility > ~3 pure dps
also, the comparison should be hybrid dps+priest healer vs. pure dps+non-priest healer…at least for hordes
in this case, though, holy paladins are amazing single-target healers, so i guess that that part doesn’t apply
also, if threat isn’t an issue, then you can bring a fury warrior that pulls >1500 dps; that gnome in the old video was a gnome and didn’t get the sword spec racial to go with what I assume from memory was the hungering cold… I don’t remember if he was wearing edgemasters
Be honest people…how many of you plan on cutting edge progression raiding, going for world or server firsts?
If you are, then kudos to you, your Paladins should be healing.
For everyone else, who cares if someone rolls ret? I’ll take a dedicated reliable ret Pally over the Warrior or Rogue who can’t be assed to show up on time, with all their world buffs and their consumables.
I’m not saying it makes up for it entirely, I’m saying that the raid is still within the realm of feasible while having a Ret Paladin due to the overall DPS loss being rather minimal.
If you’re going to suggest that something being 2% less is not feasible, then the word you’re really looking for is optimal.
Which most people around here aren’t going to claim a Ret Paladin is optimal.
The 1/3 I was using was assuming a 1500+ DPS Fury Warrior. If anything else, you’re looking at less of a gap.
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well perhaps google provided the wrong definition of feasible, then; it seemed pretty different than google’s definition of viable
and i’m not saying that 2% takes it out of the realm of feasibility, or that its 2%
anyway, if threat is an issue, then rogues do way more dps unless paladin bubble is a permanent threat wipe(which I doubt)
and if threat isn’t an issue, then warriors do over twice as much dps… and, again, don’t forget about berserker stance’s innate 20% threat reduction
“and, again, don’t forget about berserker stance’s innate 20% threat reduction”
not in vanilla lol
Berserker Stance
Instant 1 sec cooldown
Requires Warrior
Requires level 30
An aggressive stance. Critical hit chance is increased by 3% and all damage taken is increased by 10%.
https://classic.wowhead.com/spell=2458/berserker-stance
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well, then my point still stands(but not as high) if that information is correct, which I’ll assume that it is
when was it given 20% innate threat reduction, if ever? is that just a pserver thing?
Most people aren’t trying to claim Ret Paladins can compete on DPS. Theloras maybe, but that’s about it around here and he’ll probably say something about Nightfall to get them there.
If you’re looking to maximize DPS then yeah, a Rogue or Warrior are better. A Warlock is better too, or even a Hunter.
Well, unless we want to get into Nightfall again =P
Lets say you bring 3 Ret pallies…and lets say a rogue does 40% more dps(to help your argument) that’s a total of 1.2%~1.25% of raid dps missing if you bring three ret pally’s instead of rogues. You can probably get a rough estimate of 32 dpsing members(Factor in wanding for healers and tanks… which I I am not sure how to eyeball… but my guess it equates to 32 active dps members… so ((1/32)x0.4)x100… gives you 1.25%
You lose 1.25%~dps…which is like an eighth or less of a world buff…
What do you gain?
-3 dps who get to be healed and mess up less due to higher armor and bubble(which COULD even result in you bringing one less healer OR having a priest roll Power Infusion instead of holy, which would increase overall dps)
-You have 3 more people who can refresh pally buffs, have auras and cleanses IF needed, so you can more easily optimize buffs without it affecting rotations.
-You have 3 more lay on hands, Blessing of Protections, and back-up off heals if there is ever a need.
I am not saying these things make a Ret paladin preferable OVER a rogue, I am saying that the difference is insignificant.
Now, if you bring 10 Ret Pally’s, that starts to exacerbate the disadvantages. A guild could still do it, but That I would say is arguably not efficient, because A. gear distribution would be difficult and B. you may be cutting it close on enrage timers if not all the Ret Pally’s are really good players.
It would actually be silly for a guild to not bring at least 1 or 2 Ret pally’s because they compete for different gear than most players. It is more efficient.
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https://web.archive.org/web/20061023002703/http://evilempireguild.org/guides/kenco2.php
Warriors did get a passive 20% threat reduction, it just wasn’t tied to Berserker Stance. It was tied to not being in Defensive Stance.
Rogues also got an innate 20% threat reduction at all times(which does affect their Feint).
Liberty Prime is ONLINE
Going to play the heck out of ret paladin in vanilla, and no one is going to stop me!
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“Now, if you bring 10 Ret Pally’s, that starts to exacerbate the disadvantages.”
Judgement Stacking says, “Hold my beer…”
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Props to Zephan and the lock discord for all of the good warlock theorycrafting.
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