Retribution DPS Theorycraft Sheets

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

yea but he wishes he was a Ret Pally!

[Espure-proudmoore (Espure)]

I think you’re overestimating what you need to kill bosses.

[Tarregor-dalaran (Tarregor)]

theres probably something wrong with this stuff that i just typed in notepad; I’ll let you dissect it for me:

26 dpsers, effectively, including 2 from all healers+all tanks
if 3 dps are ret paladins, then reduce effective number of dpsers from 26 to 24
assume that 1 melee dpser=1600 dps, and ret paladin=800 dps, typical dpser(melee+ranged)=1200 dps?
raid loses 2400 dps
all dps with 26 dps=31200
all dps with 24 dps=28800
31200/28800= ~8.333…%, so you’d be doing 8.333% more dps with 3 fury warriors/rogues over 3 ret paladins

also, concerning gear, theres only so many slots that are made just for ret paladins, and so many pieces of gear; if you take 1 ret paladin along, then hes gonna want rings, amulets, trinkets, cloaks, and weapons that warriors and/or rogues want, as well as ZG and eventually naxx enchants
and some of those items made for ret paladins aren’t as good for ret paladins as items that aren’t made for ret paladins and use the same equipment slot, iirc; perhaps I’m wrong about this part

and you could just give the ret paladin gear to the holy paladins if you don’t want it to go completely to waste, but that won’t help with your progression

also thx for the link Sabetha, and @Espure I didn’t say viable

[Sabetha-turalyon (Sabetha)]

If we assume that the raid has 23 typical DPS and has 3 slots remaining to use on DPS, then the raid’s base DPS is 23 * 1200 = 27600. If we fill those last 3 slots with:

3 Ret Paladins: 3 * 800 = 2400 + 27600 = 30000
3 Typical DPS: 3 * 1200 = 3600 + 27600 = 31200
3 Melee DPS: 3 * 1600 = 4800 + 27600 = 32400

Compared to typical DPS, the Ret Paladins are a 3.8% loss of DPS(1200 difference in DPS divided by 31200 you could be doing). Alternatively, you could look at it as doing 4% more DPS by using 3 Typical DPS.

Compared to 3 Melee DPS, the Ret Paladins are a 7.4% loss of DPS. Alternatively, you could look at it as doing 8% more DPS by using 3 Warrior/Rogues.

Additionally, each Ret Paladin costs you ~2.5% of max raid DPS compared to using Rogue/Warriors(32400 max raid DPS) or ~1.3% of max raid DPS compared to using typical DPS(31200 max raid DPS).

[Hailiaxx-stormrage]

theres probably something wrong with this stuff that i just typed in notepad; I’ll let you dissect it for me:

26 dpsers, effectively, including 2 from all healers+all tanks
if 3 dps are ret paladins, then reduce effective number of dpsers from 26 to 24
assume that 1 melee dpser=1600 dps, and ret paladin=800 dps, typical dpser(melee+ranged)=1200 dps?
raid loses 2400 dps
all dps with 26 dps=31200
all dps with 24 dps=28800
31200/28800= ~8.333…%, so you’d be doing 8.333% more dps with 3 fury warriors/rogues over 3 ret paladins

also, concerning gear, theres only so many slots that are made just for ret paladins, and so many pieces of gear; if you take 1 ret paladin along, then hes gonna want rings, amulets, trinkets, cloaks, and weapons that warriors and/or rogues want, as well as ZG and eventually naxx enchants
and some of those items made for ret paladins aren’t as good for ret paladins as items that aren’t made for ret paladins and use the same equipment slot, iirc; perhaps I’m wrong about this part

and you could just give the ret paladin gear to the holy paladins if you don’t want it to go completely to waste, but that won’t help with your progression

also thx for the link Sabetha, and @Espure I didn’t say viable

My argument holds the same regardless of the value.

lets says its a 8.3% loss in dps… though I think you are grossly overestimating the average melee dps. You are using the values for the best geared and played melee in the raid.

In practice, it is not uncommon for a ret paladin to be in the middle of the pack as far as dps meters… if you do not bring too many, because of gear competition.

Paladins are less squishy, have lay on hands, blessing of protection, auras, buffs, cleanses, and more… everything I previously stated which you mentioned zero…

You could theoretically find a happy medium where you can drop a healer and add a dps in such a senario… or like I said before convert priests to Power infusion spec, because less heals are needed. Paladins simply take less damage… and are able to make mistakes with bubble.

Your point about gear was 100% wrong…ret paladins do share some gear with others… but they also have a lot of a gear they do not share with others… while bringing rogues or warriors compete with EVERYTHING.

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

you’re looking at old thinking for Retribution - go through the DPS sheets linked at the top of this thread

BiS weapons for Ret now are actually:

1. Manual Crowd Pummeler
2. Flurry Axe
3. Fiery Retributer (if the +Fire dmg proc scales with spell dmg)

And no, I’m not kidding.

[Tarregor-dalaran (Tarregor)]

i did look through them… oh right I forgot to account for BiS gear which the list doesn’t have, I think?
my post says 800 dps for rets; isn’t it like 1200 in BiS gear? or is that wrong now?

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

Despotus updated the list of gear today - download the latest version - I put it in the first post in this thread

or here

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/411604493747093535/555478726083739649/Despotus_Paladin_Spreadsheet_v0.3.1.xlsx

PS the sheet is a continuing work in progress so you can join our discord channel and speak with him directly:

https://discord.gg/AqFRCt

[Hailiaxx-stormrage]

If we assume that the raid has 23 typical DPS and has 3 slots remaining to use on DPS, then the raid’s base DPS is 23 * 1200 = 27600. If we fill those last 3 slots with:

3 Ret Paladins: 3 * 800 = 2400 + 27600 = 30000
3 Typical DPS: 3 * 1200 = 3600 + 27600 = 31200
3 Melee DPS: 3 * 1600 = 4800 + 27600 = 32400

Compared to typical DPS, the Ret Paladins are a 3.8% loss of DPS(1200 difference in DPS divided by 31200 you could be doing). Alternatively, you could look at it as doing 4% more DPS by using 3 Typical DPS.

Compared to 3 Melee DPS, the Ret Paladins are a 7.4% loss of DPS. Alternatively, you could look at it as doing 8% more DPS by using 3 Warrior/Rogues.

Additionally, each Ret Paladin costs you ~2.5% of max raid DPS compared to using Rogue/Warriors(32400 max raid DPS) or ~1.3% of max raid DPS compared to using typical DPS(31200 max raid DPS).

Is that for a 40 man raid? O_o only 23 dps?
you have 13-15 healers???

Sounds like your raid needs some more Ret paladins… too many heals needed xD

jokes aside, I assume you are saying you are not going to take 40 people to the raid? but much less?

some guilds can do that of course… but if you are doing that, dps matters less already, because you can leave out whole raid spots.

You are also not factoring in the dps tanks and heals do… they contribute to the whole.

I am also not convinced the average melee does DOUBLE the damage the average ret pally equally geared… I’ve seen Ret pally’s get top 10 or even top 5 sometimes in raids.

and I hope we aren’t forgetting all my other points that have yet to be addressed xD

[Arrtilarr-warsong (Arrtilarr)]

What makes you think Ret Paladin Dps aren’t feasible in raids?

Do you actually think you can’t complete raids with a ret pally?

There is honestly not THAT much of a difference between a good ret pally and a good rogue, bringing a ret pally instead of a rogue will NOT be what makes or breaks the raid… and there are actually some advantages(and disadvantages of doing so). One being you have an extra lay on hands, buffs, BoP and a less squishy dps with bubble…
With the added utility, having a rogue doing 20% more dps(or whatever it is) means very little to the overall success of the raid.

Now, I wouldn’t have 10 Ret Pallys in the raid… but even then it’s not like you can’t complete it.

technicaly you can compete with rogues or warriors ;
and you will lose that competition anyway ;
every argument was already beaten thousdand of times;

your dps is a valuable thing ,it is the only your advantage on holy as ret;
and this is not 20%, its doing about 50% dps less;
its also a bad example of allowence for other ppl to came with strange specs to raid;

I am also not convinced the average melee does DOUBLE the damage the average ret pally equally geared… I’ve seen Ret pally’s get top 10 or even top 5 sometimes in raids.

it is even possible to have top dps as ret pally (that is depends on how others were bad),
but with near equal gear you were doing only 50% of warrior dps, or even less;

you’re looking at old thinking for Retribution - go through the DPS sheets linked at the top of this thread

BiS weapons for Ret now are actually:

1. Manual Crowd Pummeler
2. Flurry Axe
3. Fiery Retributer (if the +Fire dmg proc scales with spell dmg)

And no, I’m not kidding.

do you also need caster’s raid gear for this?
and what about TF and Ironfoe ?
2h dps is dead ?

[Hailiaxx-stormrage]

20%-50% less dps… doesn’t matter.

1.25-6% dps loss of taking 3 rets instead of 3 rogues… 3 rets who won’t compete for all of the same gear as rogues and warriors. 3 Rets who have their own utility that will put less responsibility on healers.

It all works in the end… there have been hundreds of ret pallys that have proven you wrong… and no it isn’t bad example to accept “bad” specs, you want a standard of selecting the best and most dedicated players, regardless of specs.
If your number one priority is class specs, then you’ll have a raid or guild half full of trash, undedicated, or toxic players.

The differences aren’t enough to fail an encounter. That is a fact. And it has been proven time and time again. A ret paladin has completed every single raid boss in vanilla wow without issue…

THere is always a spec that does higher dps… and you can take that to the extreme and only bring THAT spec… just bring 24 rogues and nothing else… but that is far from necessary.

Get good and dedicated players who love their class, and strategize around that… it’s more fun for everyone involved.

[Arrtilarr-warsong (Arrtilarr)]

20%-50% less dps… doesn’t matter.

oh with this kind of math…
you can easily justify surv hunter as tank and arms warrior as a healer;

1.25-6% dps loss of taking 3 rets instead of 3 rogues… 3 rets who won’t compete for all of the same gear as rogues and warriors. 3 Rets who have their own utility that will put less responsibility on healers.

ret paladins share gear with warriors mosltly,
sometimes with rogues and hunters;

It all works in the end… there have been hundreds of ret pallys that have proven you wrong… and no it isn’t bad example to accept “bad” specs, you want a standard of selecting the best and most dedicated players, regardless of specs.
If your number one priority is class specs, then you’ll have a raid or guild half full of trash, undedicated, or toxic players.

but only a few ret palies in raid logs;

hm, we were not recruiting everyone to our guild,
only class/spec combinations we need;
somehow we did not get “guild half full of trash, undedicated, or toxic players.”;
may be you just need to speak with someone before invite, it solves a lot of problems;

The differences aren’t enough to fail an encounter. That is a fact. And it has been proven time and time again. A ret paladin has completed every single raid boss in vanilla wow without issue…

1% boss wipe is common thing;
i’m sure that every single raid boss could be beaten with 39ppl or even with 35ppl;

THere is always a spec that does higher dps… and you can take that to the extreme and only bring THAT spec… just bring 24 rogues and nothing else… but that is far from necessary.

Get good and dedicated players who love their class, and strategize around that… it’s more fun for everyone involved.

a good and dedicated player should know how he could benefit his guild raid in most efficient way;
if he thinks that 50% dps is not important thing then he is not so good;

[Cleavis-magtheridon]

Wishing all the Ret Paladins all the best in your uphill journey to be your best selves.

See you in the Gulch.

[Hailiaxx-stormrage]

oh with this kind of math…
you can easily justify surv hunter as tank and arms warrior as a healer

Oh really? Can you complete an encounter with arms warriors as healers and survival hunters as tanks?

if you can, it would be a impressive feat… but I think you understand the hyperbole in your statement.

ret paladins share gear with warriors mosltly,
sometimes with rogues and hunters;

Not really… they even have their own tier set…

but only a few ret palies in raid logs;

hm, we were not recruiting everyone to our guild,
only class/spec combinations we need;
somehow we did not get “guild half full of trash, undedicated, or toxic players.”;
may be you just need to speak with someone before invite, it solves a lot of problems

I don’t think I care how many are in raid logs in ratio… I’ve seen many over the 15 years this game has been around.

but only a few ret palies in raid logs;

1% boss wipe is common thing;
i’m sure that every single raid boss could be beaten with 39ppl or even with 35ppl;

But it seems you are assuming the 1% wipe was due to lack of dps… and not a failure or inefficiency of mechanics.

And yes… which tells you dps doesn’t matter as much as you think it does, less people=less dps.

a good and dedicated player should know how he could benefit his guild raid in most efficient way;
if he thinks that 50% dps is not important thing then he is not so good;

Oh and I am sure they would… playing the spec they want to play

But once again you choose to completely ignore utility… There have been many a time a well placed BoP or LoH have saved the raid entirely… and buffs are nice!

[Sabetha-turalyon (Sabetha)]

My number pretty clearly show me using 26 DPS like Tarregor mentioned in his math. 23 is just to establish what the raid DPS will be before you’ve filled the last 3 slots.

Honestly I was just correcting his numbers rather than trying to make any sort of a point about anything you’ve said.

I already said earlier in the thread that taking a Ret Paladin is a pretty minimal DPS loss to the raid as a whole.

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

DespotusToday at 6:09 AM

Sheet update. Bug fixes for imp 1h spec and DMF buff. Also added holy mightstone as a consumable - Just realized I think I left the 5/5 imp 1h spec that I was using for testing set as the default, so be sure to remove it unless you are are running deep prot

DespotusToday at 10:04 AM

The one linked at the top isn’t the most updated
The one I linked in here most recently should have it, though
Actually, here’s just another update. Fixed edgemaster’s

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/411604493747093535/555800191723110401/Despotus_Paladin_Spreadsheet_v0.3.3.xlsx

[Raywind-llane]

lolret lolprot lolholy

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

DespotusToday at 8:28 AM

Sheet update. Adjusted MCP formula so it won’t be over-valued on long fights due to weapon swap CD. Added some random weapons, buffs, and holy shield. Tank mitigation values still not added because I decided to be lazy. If you want to test tanking TPS, be sure to activate “attacking from front” toggle to attack tables get re-calculated. Currently a 1 roll system with yellows.

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/530493618406817793/556861368297324554/Despotus_Paladin_Spreadsheet_v0.3.4.xlsx

[Cheapshot-arthas]

I was under the impression that these items don’t scale with spellpower. I might be out of the loop on something. But currently on LH/ND these are static and do not scale. Is there maybe some vanilla footage that I’m missing to prove otherwise? If these scale thats huge.

[Theloras-llane (Theloras)]

scaling varied from item to item and weapon to weapon - which ones are you specifically referring to?

For example - all items/weapons with a Life DRAIN scaled at 100% of spell damage in Vanilla as seen here:

See the +571 Life Drain - that is from this 2h axe:

Neretzek, The Blood Drinker
Binds when picked up
Two-hand Axe
202 - 303 Damage Speed 3.70
(68.2 damage per second)
+21 Strength
+16 Stamina
Durability 120 / 120
Requires Level 60
Chance on hit: [Steals 141 to 164 life from target enemy.]
https://classicdb.ch/?item=21856

You can see the other items/weapons with similar Life Drains here as well:
https://classicdb.ch/?spell=26693#see-also-ability