They made it the smoothest DPS spec on top of being an already popular spec.
The answer is not to make it play like sh*t again, the other classes should be just as smooth.
You don’t make your #1 selling cookie taste like garbage because it out sales every other cookies you make over some misguided backward principle that they should all sell equally, you improve your other ones.
Adding some depth sure.
Putting friction in? No thanks
depth=/= friction
Friction is like having to apply your dot manually to all mobs, that’s not depth it’s just tedious and that’s not fun.
The only thing they realistically need to do is make Ret care about Holy Power and not wasting it.
And multiple people already highlighted how to do that.
You’re completely out of context of the discussion.
Why would they nerf the DPS?
It’s mid…
They don’t balance DPS on perceived/actual ease of play.
Neither do they balance DPS with utilities available.
You guys need to hammer that through your thick skulls.
They balance DPS so that each spec, when played correctly, can complete the hardest form of content in mythic/heroic raid and M+10.
That as nothing to do with design.
Even the worst designed spec will deal the damage necessary to complete mythic raid.
Says who? Since when are you the arbiter of all things paladin?
Some people like myself love and enjoy the rotation of the spec. If it’s too simple for you, find another spec to play. There are various reasons why people love playing ret: style, gameplay, lore, etc.
Ret doesn’t “need” anything, Per Se. It’s fine where it is.
Ret has no stupid maintenance buffs or debuffs. So of course to specs full of that garbage consider ret “simple” and why an unholy player would complain. Pressing outbreak every 14 seconds on the same boss is chief gameplay.
Now we’re just mincing words. Whether you want to call it friction, challenge, etc. it doesn’t matter. Almost every other dps spec has some sort of problem to overcome in order to do well, whether it’s managing procs/resources/positional requirements.
That’s what elevates the skill floor. I don’t want the spec to play badly either, but it’s up to the designers whether it comes across as challenging or annoying. Whatever it ends up being for Ret, the spec desperately needs the extra dimension because it’s currently just too simple.
I don’t see what the style and lore has to do with this, but of course you like the gameplay. It’s like playing with cheats enabled.
Super easy damage. Easy to survive. Decent mobility. Barely punished by mechanics. Self heals. Immunities. I like it too, but I can be objective enough to recognize the huge disparity with the gameplay of other specs.
The old talent trees had the “easy” talents on the left that did less dps, compared to the right side talents that were more involved but did more damage. Current Ret is straight up left side gameplay, with right side output.
You make it sound like Ret isn’t just easy, but stronger than everyone else as well, when in fact six classes have a DPS spec that’s better in m+ than Ret (sham has 2), and three classes have a spec slightly below it. That only leaves priest, monk, and DH without a spec that’s competitive with Ret, and we know Shadow, WW, and Havoc need buffs, right? That Ret shouldn’t be nerfed down to their level?
This is the data I’m using to make this argument: murlok.i o/meta/dps/mm+
Also I’d make another argument that while Ret has an easy rotation, its utility is harder to use well than that of other DPS specs. What do you think has a higher skill ceiling in m+, Ret or Assass? Ret or Fury? I think it’s Ret for sure.
There is always a priority target and ES is far and away the superior PvE talent because wake is a 30s cd and bosses exist. You’re that guy spamming storm on the NW necromancer packs or thinking your cleave is killing totems in SV.
There are so many things wrong in your post. I honestly dont know where to start. Ret Pally’s are powerful but they arent the almighty gods of destruction you think they are. While leveling in dungeons, they are incredibly powerful but as soon as scaling catches up to them, they become about the same as an Enhancement Shaman. If you play Ret the right way, you quickly find out they are a Front Loading class. The War Within is all about Front Loading Damage. Every class save Arms Warriors, Affliction Warlocks, and Shadow Priests benefit from the design. As boss fights last longer those classes have legs to catch the Front Loaders and do it very quickly. Frost Mages rage A LOT when they get passed up by a Shadow Priest. I think you really need to play a Ret at high level and really look at how many abilities a Pally has to play with and how many buttons they have before passing a verdict on how OP Ret Pally’s are. Are they OP? Yes, on mobs. On bosses? Not so much.
I didnt read the 75 comments to see who told you this but…your complaint seems to be PVE focused, none of you enemies are playable character Rets, these are your teammates doing well and you are what, sad, mad, disappointed?
The double WoA you are referring to I’d assume is actually WoA X1 and HoL X1, are they effective? Yeah kinda, but they are from Templar and in M+ a lot of players of Ret dont have HoL because they are using another Hero talent tree.
Your overall complaint that Ret is easy while being effective, ok, I hear you, but using Rets group utility to its full potential is where a Ret shows its skill. And specifically to your Execution Sentence low cooldown complaint, without uptime on the target to boost its damage ES does nearly no damage by itself and actually 0 damage if the target dies before it lands as it takes 8 or 12 seconds to hit the target depending on talents, so a skillful Ret will swap to a high health target before casting ES.
You mentioned spenders FV and DS, FV does very little more damage geared at level 80 than it did for a geared level 70 last expansion. If Ret is to be considered good in M+, and I think it is, it is due to favorable tuning on Divine Storm, not it’s quite weak Final Verdict.
So are you arguing that Ret should do less damage than your DK because you think DK is more complicated than the total package that Ret has or that Rets rotation should be made less intuitive or more strict on using abilities in a “perfect” order to match DK difficultly?
Ret could be tremendous in pve and I wouldn’t mind, but I wouldnt know it. I PVP where Ret has many pvp specific nerfs and has its offensive DoTs and defensives dispelled and is considered no better than average.
Reason why ES/FR is tuned the way it is, is due to feedback that Ret often had to choose between ST and AOE resulting in a lackluster side while you get decent on the other.
With the current change, ES does offer priority add dmg while not killing the bulk of your aoe. If we change it back then we will have the same problem as ‘‘pick one side for AOE, pick the other for ST’’.
Yeah, Ben explained it to me earlier in the post that FR damage only comes from holy spenders and not holy builders. That’s a definite loss if I ever heard one.
FR should be the clear winner in AoE but it’s not.
And its completely behind in ST to ES.
People disliked the huge swing between picking ES or FR for AoE/ ST but how they solved it was to nerf FR to the point where it had no virtual advantages over ES at all, save situations where everything would die before 8 sec.
The relative DPS contribution of DS isn’t at much as it was in AoE, they could afford bringing the AoE amp of FR back up or buff the upfront damage.
