Benmarch showed me my erroneous assumptions on FR. The way FR reads , I assumed ALL Holy damage contributed to the mobs at 15%, but as Ben told me on this forum, it’s only for Holy SPENDERS, not builders. Blizzard needs to really be more detailed in their explanations of abilities.
Yeah, I’ve switched to ES.
ya i wouldnt mind if FR gets a solid buff to effect all holy damage by 15-30% would be nice to have a actual 1min cd
Agreed. 
Would probably swing the pendulum way over FR side if it affected all holy damage.
Because that’s essentially all our damage, which is what ES give on a single target.
If they want it to be a gameplay choice they could buff the spender amp on ST so that it rivals ES in ST a bit more and leave it as is in AoE since they are virtually equal.
Otherwise, if they want to emphasize their different roles, buffing the upfront damage would re-affirm FR hegemony in AoE whilst bringing it ever so slightly closer to ES in ST but still behind.
Which would actually be a choice.
This thread is still going? Lol
That’s why I enjoy the paladin community. Even in a stupid troll thread, we make it useful and share our knowledge to become better warriors of the Holy Light.
What about Expurgation? I would guess against trash while doing an AoE rotation with cooldowns up, BoJ + Expurg does around 3 mil, while ES does 2 mil, give or take a few hundred thousand if HoL crits or not. We can test this against the target dummies in Dornogal but I owe my dog a long walk now.
ES probably hits a lot harder if you squeeze in back-to-back HoLs, but I don’t think that’s a worth it because it overwrites the haste buff from Undisputed Ruling.
edit:
Sorry Rayzens, meant to respond to Ben with this one. But for what it’s worth, ES did about 4% of my total damage in a CoT +10 earlier today (1.8 mil total DPS throughout the run), and I messed it up a few times by sending it before the tank was done setting up the pull. What can I say, I get antsy.
https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/zbKAYCtdMwm4LBPa#fight=40&type=damage-done&source=4
I just want to throw my own logs in there to correlate with what Ben is saying. We’re hitting around the same with ES.
And yes, thread is weird. I thought FR was decidedly out the window at the season start and that ES was superior both, because it hits pretty hard and secondly bolsters our pretty weak ST.
And all my logs are public so feel free to dig around and look at my triumphs and humiliations.
I tried it against the five target dummies in Dornogal for like twenty min. Usually ES does a little under 2.5 mil, while BoJ + Expurg in the same window does 3-3.5 mill. The highest I saw for each was 3 mil for the former, 4 mil for that latter. It’s a simple test that anyone can repeat for more data.
And let’s say your tank gathers up a couple packs of 10+ mobs (first pull in SV, the pulls in CoT before the big bug that poisons the whole party, etc): BoJ should only grow stronger in these situations because Expurg doesn’t have a target cap, afaik… So in big pulls, unless a priority mob needs to die, the right play is probably to ES early while the tank is still gathering, or to not use it at all.
Exactly, so over 8 sec and multiple GCD while ES gives you 2.5 for 1 GCD.
Exactly so regardless of the situation you ES in the opener, even if there’s exactly 6 mobs BoJ/BoV doesn’t out damage ES for the GCD.
If there’s more, they probably need to be gathered in which case you STILL use ES while you wait for them to be gathered.
Started with an idiot spouting stupid ended with a symposium on ES. GG.
BoJ + Expurg is 1 gcd, and what does it matter that it’s over 8 sec?
Not true. BoJ will deal significantly more damage in this situation. Skipping ES = another BoJ during your burst window. I think you’re underestimating Expurg, especially during Truth’s Wake? You didn’t include it at all in your initial example against 5 targets, and even then BoJ wasn’t that far behind ES.
Right, I agree that ES is almost always worth using against trash. Mobs often don’t start grouped up, you’re worried about aggro, there’s a mob with a lot more health than his friends, etc.
LOL. Sorry, I’m done. Have the last say, Ben, we don’t have to agree on this.
The point I was making is that no singular GCD will out damage pressing ES at the start of a pack.
No because the point is that you would use BoJ instead of ES.
So BEFORE wake AND crusade, so unbuffed completely.
Because it’s beside the point, you’ll use BoJ at second 3 or 4 and get 4-5 second of expurg still
Which means you can’t count expurg completly because those seconds of expurg would have happened regardless.
To clarify, I’d use BoJ later in my opener, but 1 gcd sooner by skipping ES. I’d fit another BoJ into my burst window essentially
I believe Expurg stacks nowadays so that 2 BoJs = you get the full benefit of 2 Expurgs. This is where the confusion may be arising. Expurg isn’t a DoT that you want to maintain, but rather it’s just extra damage for each and every BoJ
This is how it works now, right? Someone let me know if I’m wrong.
Sorry for responding again, just wanted to clarify
No, the duration increases, it doesn’t stack.
Edit: it does kek
Expurgation stacks. I tested it against the five target dummies to make sure.
1 BoJ: 700k damage
2 BoJs: 1.4m
3 BoJ: 2.3m
No gcds in between, just used BoJs back to back (to back)
I stand corrected, it refreshed the duration to 9 but the expurg does more damage.
It carries over to the next one, so it stack and it doesn’t at the same time.
The remaining damage is dealt in the seconds that were remaining if I understand correctly.
Yea, exactly. If you have two ticks of Expurg remaining when you use BoJ a second time, those two ticks will roll into the next Expurg, and they last for only 2 ticks.
Basically every BoJ just deals its full Expurg damage.
Sorry if I got pushy with all this. G’night!
Lol Ret Paladin has been popular since Wrath, whether it’s good or not. A Warrior can literally press ONE button and shoot to the top of meters, Bladestorm, same with Devoker. I’m not saying Ret is hard, it could definitely be made more difficult, but there are definitely easier specs still.
The spec is definitely shaping up to be the new huntard, mainly because of how easy it is for it to do damage, survive, and not be punished by mechanics.
Its skill floor is in the basement and while it might not be meta, it’s pretty high on the list. There is a reason that it’s the most popular dps spec in every <= 12 key bracket (which is basically the level where Blizz stops caring) and every raid difficulty.
They simplified it way too much in the redesign and removed any friction that players needed to play around. It needs some (or any) depth added to its rotation or something else will eventually get nerfed.