Ret was never good in vanilla and was barely tolerable horde side in TBC. Be glad they bent the rules and give you Seal of Blood right away on alliance side now in TBC.
if itâs more a mana thing, the paladins in Naxx playing Ret are doing 1k-1.2K DPS, and that is actually impressive, and they are able to do the whole 1min 50 Sec patchwerk fight; tho I am not certain what they are doing to make it happen.
My own personal experience playing Ret for the meme in ZG I was only able to manage 550 DPS, and mana didnât become an issue, However I kept my use of Judgment to a minimum and tinkered with seal twisting. when I did get the seal twist correct it was actually really good, but Iâm not proficient in that art.
I canât say I felt any problems with mana, and did use my swing timer to cast cleanse between to help with dispels when needed and HoJ on MCâd targets as well as BoP on players about to die.
Kinda thinking about it overall reflecting on PVE, I feel itâs less a class problem than itâs a Raids are poorly designed problem.
What I mean by that is look at the raids and notice that the PvE mechanics donât really promote use of the full kit on any class⌠There is virtually zero required CC on most boss encounters, abilities like freedom and SaC arenât exactly mission critical, ZugZug is rewarded and CC is sorta not⌠dispels arenât even all that terribly considered outside of a few situations; especially low end content.
Itâs no difference in the dungeons, and really this is because Big Zug specs were more fun and simple to understand and players wanted them buffed while CC heavy PvE was kinda hated.
Turning attention to warrior, yes rage scales too well, HS offhand hit exploit is not helping the game and flurry is a little too good. IMO if there was a âwhat ifâ remaster of Vanilla just slightly tone down warrior and that would be fine; bringing them back to their pre 1.10 Game play state would be really for the best.
But the crying would be legendary, and instead of BGâs and world pvp mostly full of very controllable Zugs we would instead be infested by Nothing but rogues.
While you and I can eat rogues for lunch in a global, most players freak out and cry about rogues. as for their DPS itâs basically just auto attacks buffed by Slice and Dice with blade flurry and AR strapped on in the deep combat (not pvp talents)âŚ
what ever class is top DPS is what we will see most of in PvP, and right now that is warrior and I kinda selfishly donât want that to change since they are so manageable.
If Iâm just rotating judgements itâs not bad. If Iâm in Naxx using Exorcism itâs an issue. If Iâm using Consecration itâs over. We also have a really interesting and compelling mechanic in seal twisting, but that adds even more mana overhead. Honestly, it should add more dps for what it takes to pull it off haha.
Iâd imagine you have better gear than me, but as Iâm writing this I just did 291 dps on Thekal and had to pop both a pvp mana pot and a demonic rune to be able to last the whole fight, which was still quite short.
While true, consider also that any utility we bring as a Ret paladin is either done by a Holy paladin, or not desirable in raids. Vindication is nullified by the debuff limit and the only class who wants Sanc Aura is a Disc Priest, which also suffers from mana issues and conflicts with our own group buff priorities.
Iâd love it if we redesigned raids to give hybrids more value but honestly, itâs probably easier if we just buff them a smidge. The WoW ecosystem would not, contrary to popular belief, collapse in on itself if hybrids were slightly more viable in a raiding context.
Hereâs how you fix warrior, lolâŚ
Haha I get that, but that shouldnât get in the way of a balanced game. I like to think about it this way⌠if Blizzard didnât go to TBC and chose instead to make Vanilla a âfinishedâ game (ie, not a perpetual service), how would they have balanced things? I canât imagine theyâd have left it in a state where warriors did 4x more damage than other hybrids and 30% more damage than rogues/mages.
Some good thoughts but here is another strategy that would work without messing with much at all.
Nerf all raid loot down to the Molten core effective item level. Basically what this means is Item level of the output stats only as an average across the sets and offsets. By output stats I am talking about stats like spell damage, healing, attack power, crit, Agi, stamina, defense, block etc⌠but excluding stats like Fire resistance.
Do this for all raids so effectively every set is the same output level with the only increase being the changes to resistance stats that are effective to the raids.
Doing this would reduce output quite a bit, but with WBâs all the raids can be cleared. Simply reducing power factor nerfs warriors down a lot because they really only go wild with AQ armor.
This would allow basically zero changes to the classes to be a thing meanwhile it fixes the disparity between specs making even hunter actually half decent.
The real issue has always been the gear; the classes were never designed with the gear we have in mind; let alone world buffs.
Something else that could really help is making all group buffs raid wide; this makes classes that would perform better a chance to do so simply because no longer is there a âpumper groupâ. Just having the best group buffs is a big advantage for melee.
Expand the debuff limit to 60 or 80 and itâs basically a new game with the same classes.
A quick google shows that in this gearing context Warriors are still way out front. I suspect part of the issue has to do with their unlimited resource generation. I know Naxx gear amplifies that but while theyâre on par with rogues (a bit ahead), theyâre blowing any class with a mana bar out of the water.
Thatâs what I aimed to address with my suggested changes above. Blizzard gave everybody except Warriors some kind of speed limit. Even with one Rogues and mages (in naxx gear) perform a little too well compared to other pure DPS, but a tank-based class shouldnât be beating them under any circumstances.
With that said⌠Iâm actually hugely in favour of horizontal progression. If your power level peaked in MC and the other raids offered you a mix of stat alternatives in pursuit of BiS, visual alternatives, or content-specific gating unlocks, that would not only be fun, it would be much easier to balance around.
Yup, it makes all content actually valuable forever, and they kinda are, but at the same time it would be more interesting if each raids loot focused its gear for a different class build with stats and bonuses more appropriate to it.
Like say you have T1 loot for paladin with the First set bonus being any time you block you gain 2% mana back. (made up numbers for illustration only) And being a minor set bonus it allows for creative opportunities.
Would be the same for every class making some really interesting builds possible, even more so that even now.
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Sounds like you paladins who donât want to heal may like SOD better
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Think the biggest problem many have is the focus and perception of the class and the real failure is blizzardâs instanced PvE design fails at getting players to do a whole hecknof a lot with the majority of the abilities in their kits.
The real issue is warrior, rogue, and mage (surprise the top 3 dps classes) are the only 3 with strong offensive cooldowns. Remove them and recheck the balance.
Fights last 30 seconds or less, warriors have a 20% damage dealt buff (for that entire duration) and 100% crit up for 15 seconds. Diamond flask on top for 75 more strength. Gee, I wonder why that would do more dps than a class with literally 0 offensive cdâs.
rogue has 15s duration on blade flurry and adrenaline rush and then a harsh drop off outside of d2 4p energy procs.
mage has combustion or arcane power (30% damage for 15 seconds)
What does everyone else have?
(Bonus edit: good luck figuring out what replaces those because everything I just listed except recklessness comes from a talent.)
Regarding your thoughts on this.
Yup, and BF is incredibly powerful, arguably one of the strongest PVE CDâs in game.
As you mentioned tho, talentsâŚ
Most of the classes donât have anything tho, and I dont have a terrible problem with that at all, hell the big CDâs would not be such a problem if the fights lasted longer to curb the parsesâŚ, as youâre aware the faster the boss dies the longer the % of the fight such CDâs represent a component of it making the collective DPS increase as a result.
Most mages roll ignite in a team effort, that is an interesting and actually cool mechanic, but mage is actually easy to tone down; make ignite a debuff unique to the mage⌠That actually kills parses kinda hard.
Biggest problem is players who will be mad that numbers arenât bigger. There is a serious obsession many have with that.
Not really, it means less overall ignite damage but the mages are still competing with each for parses, it will most likely equal out.
The way it works now is balanced for parsing tho.
Was referring to the whole raid because the ignite roll wouldnât be reliable but come to think of it youâre right because several wimpy ignites would be still good⌠Hmm.
Thatâs why the rotation is for all mages to scorch then frostbolt 1 time to drop the scorch ignite.
WCL automatically evenly distributes the ignite damage to all fire mages for parses
Doing things that actually work in each situation , down to every pull.
I usually have 3-1/2 sets of gear on me and go from heal/tank/dps looking for best outcome of the fight.
Swinging around Nightfall is a good ret role too
Blue Power Ranger pls
I can already guess for whom you vote.
Judgement of the Crusader should have been spellpower (raw)
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Theres always someone like you in every thread. Get a life bro, no one cares you are so manly and tough
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There is always a special place in my heart for a cretin tells someone, on the internet, to get a life.
I donât understand why so many of these threads are being made, this isnât classic+. Theyâve made some small QoL changes but they havenât done a single thing to any of the classes and wonât. Itâs pretty easy to google what playing xyz class is like in classic and if you chose a class you donât enjoy that is nobody elseâs fault. Sounds to me like you should have rolled warrior since big numbers are what is important to you.
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