Remove timer based content from the game

[Brrwd-area-52-910775]

It’s a perfect place to learn how to tank +2s though, and then +2s are a perfect place to learn how to tank +4s, and so on. It’s not hard, people don’t do it right and then complain to blizzard for getting a bad result after making a bad decision. It’s always the player’s fault.

edit: Let me clarify too, once you complete EVERY DUNGEON on m0, you can complete every dungeon on +2, then are ready to progress securely to +4. You don’t do FH on +0, Seth on +2, TD on +4, and so on. You have to gain experience in every dungeon at every level depending on how bad you are at this game.

[Akston-area-52]

Enrage timers are very different; they only apply during a fight. During a raid, you can have breaks, people can go bio or eat, or goof around or go watch strats etc. More importantly, you get multiple shots at a single timer, try different approaches, even rotate people in and out. None of that is possible in M+, so the timer there feels very different.

In a raid, the fight is the encounter.

In a dungeon, the entire dungeon is the encounter.

In a raid you are being timed via enrage timer for the content that gives loot. That is killing the raid boss.

In a m+ you are being timed for the content that gives loot. This includes trash, and all bosses. You don’t get loot until the end when you have killed the trash and all bosses.

On bolstering there are mobs that can one shot you at 20 for 450k damage. There is some permutation of mob strength and available lives that makes the game challenging, so the “would not keep any amount of challenging” is just silly.

So m+ would still be challenging with no timer, because at m+20 on a specific affix you can be killed?

Not impressed.

You mean how the game is meant to be played? With tanks that tank, healers that heal, and DPS that uses their CC effectively?

Sounds like I fixed the game for you.

…what?

I am saying a m+ group would be 3 tanks, 2 healers. The tanks are dpsing. There is no dps.

Sounds like you broke the game.

[Rankin-shandris (Rankin)]

Enrage timers are very different; they only apply during a fight. During a raid, you can have breaks, people can go bio or eat, or goof around or go watch strats etc. More importantly, you get multiple shots at a single timer, try different approaches, even rotate people in and out. None of that is possible in M+, so the timer there feels very different.

Right up until the second timer hits, trash respawns.

And M+ is much shorter in duration if you’re doing things right. And if you screw up, then the key goes down a level and you try again. It’s not like you’re permanently locked out if you make any mistakes.

[Nasuuna-emerald-dream]

I am saying a m+ group would be 3 tanks, 2 healers. The tanks are dpsing. There is no dps.

I said with an enrage timer - how are you going to beat a bosses enrage timer with 3 tanks?

[Mkali-thrall]

It’s a perfect place to learn how to tank +2s though, and then +2s are a perfect place to learn how to tank +4s, and so on. It’s not hard, people don’t do it right and then complain to blizzard for getting a bad result after making a bad decision. It’s always the player’s fault.

I would be all for that if I could practice run any +2 I wanted like I can with m0.

In a raid, the fight is the encounter.

In a dungeon, the entire dungeon is the encounter.

In a raid you are being timed via enrage timer for the content that gives loot. That is killing the raid boss.

In a m+ you are being timed for the content that gives loot. This includes trash, and all bosses. You don’t get loot until the end when you have killed the trash and all bosses.

…Yes? That’s my point? So you agree then?

[Akston-area-52]

…Yes? That’s my point? So you agree then?

Your point is that m+ should definitely have a timer, since it would be the same as a raid boss having an enrage timer?

[Nasuuna-emerald-dream]

Not sure how people can even argue against a lives only system. It’s not like life count is the OG way to make challenging content. I guess no one here has played arcade games.

[Brrwd-area-52-910775]

You can though, just join other people’s keys as a tank. I am a tank main, I know how to tank on every single tank aside from DK and DH up to +10 keys. Nobody is going to turn down a tank that is experienced in M0 for a +2 run. There are always +2 runs in lfg to apply to. Tanks don’t struggle to get accepted to groups, it’s not an issue like it is for dps players. The only issue is players lacking initiative and confidence.

[Mkali-thrall]

…Yes? That’s my point? So you agree then?

Your point is that m+ should definitely have a timer, since it would be the same as a raid boss having an enrage timer?

My point is that the two timers have a very different feel and contribute to people being more reluctant to try one than the other. You then responded with “here are a bunch of reasons why the timers are different.” Yes, I know they’re different, I’m looking for ways m+ can be improved. Not saying I agree with the OP’s suggestion.

[anon21459328]

A) Do not affect each other
B) Should be separate

m+ affects all class design. That is the problem I outlined in my OP. It’s why rdruid and other classes that excel at m+ are so popular, and why some specs are considered memes despite being very traditional RPG role specs.

These change between patches all the time. My own spec is smack bang in the middle.

However your proposed changes and the reasoning you’ve provided are insufficient in terms of giving a good reason for removing timed content. The only solution to the problem you’ve mentioned is better tuning of classes - which we see happen all the time.

[Akston-area-52]

Not sure how people can even argue against a lives only system. It’s not like life count is the OG way to make challenging content. I guess no one here has played arcade games

As long as the lives count is extremely low. Anything over 5 would be making it trivial.

Now we need to also make sure every DPS has a hard spammable CC option. Since hard spammable CC will be absolutely required for pushing.

My point is that the two timers have a very different feel and contribute to people being more reluctant to try one than the other. You then responded with “here are a bunch of reasons why the timers are different.” Yes, I know they’re different, I’m looking for ways m+ can be improved. Not saying I agree with the OP’s suggestion

No. I was showing how the timers were the same.

For raids and m+ the timers both encompass the content that gives loot.

[Ryssa-frostmourne]

Without the timer people would just stack 5 tank with Prot Pally as the healer, and y’all still won’t get invited.

[Kneeshooter-amanthul (Kneeshooter)]

Would it be possible to simply increase the level of difficulty to Mythics rather than having a timer? Mythic+ already has Affixes - why not simply increase the number or impact of Affixes as the level of the Mythic plus increases?

You wouldn’t need to have like 15+ dungeons - you could have 5, with a graduating scale of difficulty from 0 (just a bit harder than Heroic) to 5 (roooly hard). Or pick a number, its really the concept.

Perhaps even have a few levels of Mythic which have extra areas that have to be cleared to be considered a win. Along with the usual number of kills in the dungeon.

My impression is that timed gaming was created to foster esports. It increases the gogo mentality in WoW, which was already evident enough. While I don’t do high level mythic+ and therefore it doesn’t impact on me, purely as an objective viewpoint I don’t see the need for it.

[Argorwal-ysera (Argorwal)]

I’m not a huge timer fan, but stop with this idea that mythic+ changed the long dungeon layout design.

That died in TBC.

Legion and BfA actually we’re the first 2 expansions to release longer dungeons.

[Brrwd-area-52-910775]

It’s already hard enough to handle all the mechanics at top level. The timer is lost due to failing mechanics, not to slow dps.

[Mkali-thrall]

No. I was showing how the timers were the same.

For raids and m+ the timers both encompass the content that gives loot.

They serve the same purpose (challenge) but they feel extremely different in practice. You can’t stop in the middle of M+ to watch a video on what you’re doing wrong, not without failing the entire run anyway (as one example).

[Nasuuna-emerald-dream]

These change between patches all the time. My own spec is smack bang in the middle.

However your proposed changes and the reasoning you’ve provided are insufficient in terms of giving a good reason for removing timed content. The only solution to the problem you’ve mentioned is better tuning of classes - which we see happen all the time.

It has nothing to do with tuning. Tuning is a matter of balancing mechanics that are working as intended. What I’m talking about is that the overall game design has to be molded around a game mode with timers that is key to progression. If you just look at holy priest as an example, we’re a traditional plant and cast healer. You’d think that would a pretty obvious choice for healing progression content. But the fact is that disc can dps, move, and heal all at the same time (and it’s only middle of the pack without good utlity and no brez). So basically every spec has to be molded around run and gun. That is my issue. That is what destroys the RPG and leads us to homogenization for the sake of a single game mode.

Without the timer people would just stack 5 tank with Prot Pally as the healer, and y’all still won’t get invited.

That’s why you keep boss enrage timers. You can turtle the trash, but as soon as you get to the first boss you can’t progress.

[Brrwd-area-52-910775]

That’s good though. I don’t want to put up with random joe watching videos because it’s his first time in AD in a +8 key.

[Baridorielor-malfurion (Baridorielor)]

I also think a good replacement system would be to limit the number of lives to upgrade the key instead of a timer.

Ehh… I don’t really like Lives that much in video games, but in terms of replacing the timer, it’s not a bad alternative.

This is a fact.

While i do agree it would be personally fun to do anything without a timer looming over (that’s just me, maybe somebody will like that), if you are going to say “This is a fact” you need to back that up with something.

[Kneeshooter-amanthul (Kneeshooter)]

Well, the timer could be considered a mechanic of the instance itself. So it could be said that failing the timer IS failing a mechanic, it’s just impacted on by how time-smart the group is.