Yeah so you want a system where pugs can’t exist anymore. No thanks.
Please explain where I said that?
M+ and visions without timers would be extremely easy.
If I have to be worried that much about what kind of tank I am going to end up with, I’m gonna have to either interview each pug application, or create a premade to avoid the field of landmines that pugging m+ would be in your proposed system.
Lol you some work …quick question what would it hurt to have 2 sets of keys one timed and one not time…and have the one not timed have ilvl lower gear and ap…
Not at all, and we already have that. It’s called m0.
This already exists. M0.
Yep that’s what I thought
…and utterly RUINED lowbie content when players who run your high end content slink into a classic run telling us all how incompetent we are while they rush in and pull 4 fearing mobs that cause an insta-wipe.
Really gets annoying having rushy end content players destroying content they should probably just leave to those of us who enjoy playing it.
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Your argument is fallicious. This is already something that people have to do, and why we have raider io.
You’re asserting that my system would somehow make pugging harder, when the reality is that you would have MORE options on how you want to play.
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/signed. 
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It’s not fallacious even remotely lol. It’s not something I need to do, it’s an anomaly when a tank isn’t adopting the gogo mentality of m+. They are odd and abnormal tanks. Iny our system, they would be just another normal tank. It wouldn’t be expected that a tank would push the pace, so I would have to go out of my way to look for those tanks when right now tanks are expected to operate in that manner.
Nobody has time for that.
To be honest, there’s significant evidence WoW and Neverwinter are competing with each other. Many people are going to be infuriated if WoW turns into a Dungeon Crawler RPG.
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You’re the one making that assertion. You have another mode available if you want to play casually, that’s normal Mythic. You have M+ if you want a greater challenge.
When you’re wanting to roleplay and see the content you have one mode. When you’re progressing your gear you have another that actually presents a challenge.
No one has explained to me how removing the timer would keep any amount of challenge.
20-30 deaths as a cap to upgrade the key? That is not a challenging cap. It would need to be at 10 at the absolute max. Probably less.
Removing the timer will completely trivialize the keys unless some crazy mechanics are added. People would just double up on tanks, healers, etc to push keys. Or stack hard CC.
There would have to be mechanics in place to prevent this.
I was actually thinking 3-5.
Without the timer even the LFR Hero could clear +50 keys.
Timer is the only fun part of M+.
3-5 is much more accurate. I was attempting to being lenient.
This would have to coincide with ways to prevent tank/healer/hard CC stacking as well, which would just make the death cap become trivial.
Go in a key with everyone poly’ing. Or 3 tanks, 2 healers. And dying just became a ton harder, while the dungeon is now trivial.
Enrage timers are very different; they only apply during a fight. During a raid, you can have breaks, people can go bio or eat, or goof around or go watch strats etc. More importantly, you get multiple shots at a single timer, try different approaches, even rotate people in and out. None of that is possible in M+, so the timer there feels very different.
I agree that’s what m0 should be for. The problem with m0 is that people outgear it very quickly (even emissaries, LFR and weeklies match or beat it) so it becomes a poor place to learn. You never know if your success is due to your tanking skill or due to the group’s higher-than-expected dps/heals letting everyone ignore mechanics. M0 also has a lot of other differences between it and M+ - you can’t pause, can’t change talents, can’t refill if someone drops mid-run etc. It’s a terrible place to learn M+.
And I disagree that these systems
A) Do not affect each other
B) Should be separate
m+ affects all class design. That is the problem I outlined in my OP. It’s why rdruid and other classes that excel at m+ are so popular, and why some specs are considered memes despite being very traditional RPG role specs.
On bolstering there are mobs that can one shot you at 20 for 450k damage. There is some permutation of mob strength and available lives that makes the game challenging, so the “would not keep any amount of challenging” is just silly.
You mean how the game is meant to be played? With tanks that tank, healers that heal, and DPS that uses their CC effectively?
Sounds like I fixed the game for you.
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