No one did dungeons before legion, people only started doing dungeons in WoD again once they released mythic dungeons at the end of the expac.
Before that only were ever done if needed a little bit more VP for your valor cap.
And none of those dungeons were fun and they were also speed ran from what i recall since they were trivial difficulty.
Deaths do lower the time you have left though, so there already is that death based penalty. It’s a very good system that you would be incredibly hard pressed to improve.
and with no challenge you gain nothing imho
Yeah idunno, I do not think that’s good lol. Casual players that complete keys with 30 deaths on the regular, now they can’t complete keys? You’re already free to ignore the timer. It just means there is less loot in the chest at the end. Not zero loot, just less.
You can just remove the timer and put a cap on the number of lives. Then it’s no longer a game of run and gun and more a game of chess. High keys on fortified can already one shot players if you fail mechanics.
The timer isn’t necessary to make the content hard. If you only have 20 lives to spend, you can’t just nuke and wipe your way through the dungeon.
Ok, then the death count just affects the key upgraded just like the timer. How is time a better limiting factor than deaths?
Yes because E-Sports mechanics are important to the majority of the player base
I LOVE m+. I love everything about it. The strategy, the pacing, the difficulty, even the randomness of what keys you get.
I’m just humoring the crowd here, trying to think of a compromise that:
Timers are the obvious choice to satisfy all of these, but I’m open to spitballing.
Putting aside that the timer is more challenging by definition and therefore SHOULD give greater rewards, in my proposal the timer is still the only way to upgrade your key, so people would absolutely still use it. Timerless runs are there for folks who got the key to the level they’re comfortable with and now want an experience that is less stressful than regular M+, where nobody entering the dungeon has an expectation of beating the timer from the very beginning.
Addressing your concerns more directly then:
Megadungeons are still getting made - like Mechagon and Return to Kara - and I think Blizz went with the right approach here of keeping the long immersive experience for those who want it, but breaking them up into more digestible chunks when they are being added to progression systems.
Time is better than death because death can be cheesed by playing like a wank, time can’t. Nobody wants to be subject to insecure tanks that are afraid to push the pace because they want a deathless run.
The other option is simple - longer timers. If the timers were doubled, that would cut down the gogogo aspect and make thoughtful pulls and cc a viable alternative to skips and giant AoE pulls, and for most of them you still wouldn’t have hour-long runs because the timer is usually less than 30 minutes.
What if parts of the dungeon just suddenly filed with lava or death crackle, like the MOTHER fight in uldir? It’s not a timer, per se, but it kind of is.
If they doubled the timer, they’d have to double the hp on the mobs. You want that?
like in bomberman 64 HURRRY UPPPPPP. Yeah, they should introduce mechanics like that alongside the timer. It would be fun.
If you’re purely interested in the RPG aspect of it, then you can already play the game in a timer free version of the dungeon.
M+ is there with extra challenges and a timer for people who are after that. You need not participate if that is not what you enjoy.
As for specialisations there will always be a ‘lowest’ performing spec at anytime. Credit however goes to the team for having the specs as close in performance as they are.
Newer tanks ARE insecure though. All the current format does is keep out the ones who feel like they’ll get yelled at for being even a little cautious - which then contributes to the lack of tanks in pugs.
That… conclusion doesn’t follow at all.
Yeah so why are these tanks being noobs in timed runs? Learn to tank and be confident in untimed mythic0 runs. It’s not a hard concept. I don’t want to teach a noob how to tank in content they have no right approaching. Don’t do keys if you’re an insecure tank.
edit: That conclusion does follow, unless you want to completely remove difficulty from it for players that aren’t inept.
I just wish they had 2 sets of keys one for timed and one for take how long you want…
The non-timed key can reward 5 (or what ever number) ilvl lower gear then the timed key and less ap ETC…
I have friends that won’t even touch them because they are afraid they will downgrade someone’s key…
I see, so you can only want an RPG if you’re a casual? That makes absolutely no sense.
I enjoy difficult progression and the role based gameplay one expects of an MMORPG. Timers simply turn the game into an ARPG, which - we already have in Diablo and other games of that ilk.
As long as progression is tied to m+ it isn’t optional. m+ has become THE way to gear for both pvp AND raid - LFR/normal are basically worthless at this point.
So, yeah, I don’t see why timers are better than capping deaths and using enrage timers.
That’s part of the game though, you can decide who you want to run with. If people can choose to go with a group that’s going to go slow in careful or guns blazing and both approaches can net you progression rewards - that’s the system I want in the game.
Your friends honestly shouldn’t touch those keys if they are afraid of them. M0 exists for those people. It’s a stepping stone, to make +2 keys not scary. +2 keys become the new stepping stone, to make +4 keys not scary, and this goes all the way to +25 keys. People need to stop skipping progression and blaming the system for their own ineptitude. Like, if you’re good enough to skip content you won’t have a complaint, if you have a complaint, it’s because you’re not good enough.
Hard facts, but still facts.
This still breaks rule number 2. Making them easier is just that. Making them easier. Lowering the difficulty for the sake of not hurting people’s feelings.