First, it doesn’t make my concern about gearing irrelevant. There are guilds who will say you need to have your 15 done this week. So the entire guild will have to slog their way to a 15 undergeared, and spend all of their available time playing doing this so they can raid. Only the casual guilds won’t enforce this. A massive portion of the WoW population will be affected.
Second, there is a timer in raids it’s called an enrage. If you hit the timer, you wipe and everything resets. This is not the case in dungeons. If you want to raid then raid, don’t make dungeons identical to them?
Finally, for higher keys in this new world of timeless keys it would be excrutiatly boring because the meta would be to pull the same stuff in the same order every single time for eternity, and when it got high enough you would cc 3 adds and kill 1. The high end of keys would be - spend 3 hours in a dungeon every single time. Not even 3 hours of fun, three hours of single pulling mobs.
That’s only a problem of tuning. Untimed could add another + to difficulty for the same reward. Say a +10 timed is equivalent to a +12 untimed. But for people who don’t enjoy the stress or style of Gigi go they have an option.
Just buffing bosses and enemies would fix the issue. They could especially buff bosses, in fact, and that would make defeating them worth the reward.
Of course, that wouldn’t satisfy the players who want only timed m+, because they’re prepared to reject any suggestion. Not that it really matters because really it’s the balance team who would handle it.
It’s not like untimed content for gear is some new idea.
But if you don’t wait for cd’s the pack isn’t killable… what are you just gonna bail on the key then? It’s either wait or get halfway and quit. Also, I know that people don’t have infinite time. You are suggesting that keys should take 3 hours. At the higher end this is how long they would take. Who wants to be in one dungeon for that long over and over?
Be real people just want lfr mythic+
I mean, if I could do an LFR +15, I’d attempt it every week just to see how quick it would fizzle out.
Same reason I do LFR Nzoth, just to see if we can kill it in X number of attempts before bailing.
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhh
Tyrannical weeks are already impossible to push on. Your insight into this stuff is extremely limited because you don’t actually do high keys. I do. Your suggestions will not work. Don’t think I’m not open to ideas because I am. I’m just countering every point you make because I know how they’ll play out. In our relative experience you are like a grade 9 student who just finished his first biology class contradicting a doctor. If you suggest something that will work I’m all ears. Like I said, untimed keys that didn’t drop gear I would be fine with
The “meta” already does this. Pulls are the same depending only on affixes. Group comp is a function of the meta.
I think you view of dungeons is skewed from spamming them over and over. No timer can result in longer times, which means you are actually doing the same dungeon less times overall.
What raids require is unimportant to this discussion. If blizzard came out with a new food that gave you 20% more damage at the cost of running 20 dailies, raids would require you run 20 dailies.
I don’t disagree, but I also haven’t seen anything suggested that would even them out. Even comparing a 10 to 12 the timer is a big portion of the difficulty increase.
They’re need to be raid bosses in a 5 man, and minibosses for trash at some point to be the same.
But why would we care if a very small group of people do this if it makes the system much more enjoyable for the rest of us? We should consider hyper tryhards when thinking about game design, especially when doing a key higher than 15 doesn’t offer more player power.
Do you like when your boss puts a mountain of paperwork on your desk and expects it done in a half hour?
Probably not. So use that to understand why people don’t want to spend their play time under work like pressures. As much as you like to throw out that people will take forever to complete the dungeon without it that is a rare low percentile. More then likely it will get done in about the same amount of time with a slight 10-15 minute variance. Some people could probably do it faster in a more relaxed state when they are not in a panic and can think clearly.
So as much as you like timers, please try and understand why some people want them gone. They are like the heartbeat under the floor boards that beat in your mind slowly driving you nuts for some people.
If you’re defining high keys as keys above +15, those literally don’t matter because they offer no reward. And everything at or below that doesn’t need players waiting on CDs to complete, and it would compromise a lot of their gametime to do that strategy, making it time inefficient.
You might have a point if m+ infinitely scaled rewards with difficulty, but it doesn’t, so really what’s happening is that you don’t like people getting the same rewards as you by having to conquer anything other than a timer.
It doesn’t need to be balanced, tbh. Obviously, timed is going to be harder than untimed by itself, so just make untimed much more difficult for the reward you’re getting.
Make these players that are unable to do timed have to deal with additional affixes and properly utilize kiting and crowd control (more so that what there has been) to down packs.
If you enable a no-time option, slap the key with both Tyrannical and Fortified. Someone wants an untimed run? There they go.
I agree remove the timer, I hate the timer it makes it rushed and not fun. The timer is why I don’t do m+ very much.
I would do it a lot more if the timer is taken out.
When your boss puts a mountain of paperwork on your desk and asks for it in 30 minutes, it sucks, i hate it, but do I do it? Youuuuu betcha cause I dont want to get fired! Same thing will happen. Everyone will hate doing it, but will feel obligated.
But why would we care if a very small group of people do this if it makes the system much more enjoyable for the rest of us? We should consider hyper tryhards when thinking about game design, especially when doing a key higher than 15 doesn’t offer more player power.
I think the community who pushes keys is much larger than you think. We already found out that this season there have been approximately 4 million runs done over 15. There is a lot of overlap here but still. And also not everyone who enjoys keys can even push high. there are push groups still progging towards 15, probably a lot more than are over it.
And Malcik, I would rather do King’s rest 6 times in 30 minutes because that has a goal, a challenge, and a feeling of accomplishment 6 times than do 1 KR that takes 3 hours, has a goal, very very little challenge and 1 feeling of accomplishment.
I define high keys as 20 and up. and they do offer a reward to those of us who push them. And the player who right now can’t do a 10 because hes a fresh toon, but in your model would feel obligated to sit there for hours and hours and smash his head against it? and you are ABSOLUTELY right that I don’t like the fact that players would get rewards that they are undeserving of. If you got rewards from untimed, it would bloat the ilvl. Everyone would be 475. you’d have fresh toons slamming their faces against keys that would ordinarily be far too hard for them but theyre getting gear from them anyway. Hell no I dont like that
Stop ignoring the fact that players will just spend hours and hours waiting so that they can get better gear. Please acknowledge that that will happen and come up with better ideas or a better system
So, you want a handout then? Because 15s are easy once you have the experience.
If my boss says get this done whenever, but I’ll give you a bonus if you finish in a half hour, I’ll go for it. There’s no pressure because I can still finish it after that. Just like you can ignore the timer on M+
I’m not ignoring it you spaz, I’m enabling it.