How many people you see around with “undying” or “immortal” title?
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I have it.
Then you know that’s a type of challenge and a strict death counter qualifies as a challenge. Torghast will have a form of it.
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I got it by accident. We weren’t going for it, it just happened naturally from farming Naxx. It wasn’t a challenge, so much as an “oh, neat” moment.
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Most of these arguments are completely ignoring the fundamental problem with untimed m+. By taking away the timer, you ensure that at some point in the players experience, the only way to progress will be to wait for lust, or if there are is a lock on the number of lusts per dungeon, then wait for cd’s on every single pull. For some players this will be +25, for others it will be +10 but at some point, the regular dps will not be enough to beat the mobs without degenerate gameplay - just waiting for CDs. The timer ensures that there is always a way that you can change to make your time faster - why do you think MDI teams hide their routes? Because they have created a way to go faster. This creates the potential for a shifting environment no matter what. If there were no timer, there would be no change at all for the entire season. You would have to make the dungeon pathing change randomly, and we’ve all experienced that awfulness in Waycrest Manor. For those who simply want to do the keys without the timer, I would not be opposed to the option to get rid of the timer and be able to +1 for completion as long as there was also no gear rewarded at the end - else you’d just have people taking hours for these keys to receive undeserved high ilvl gear. Ilvl is already bloated, this would make it atrocious. There is also the problem where practicing untimed keys is also a necessity before doing your real key. That would really suck imo, but I’d be willing to accept that compromise.
It wasn’t common. It was complained about so much because people couldn’t get it, they removed that type of challenge.
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A death counter would only emphasize and force the degenerate gameplay of waiting for cd’s. You wipe at the beginning and only have 2 deaths remaining? Well guess what? Now you’re going to wait for 5 minutes before every pack waiting for everyone’s CDs to be back up to make sure no one else dies. You don’t think people will do that? They most assuredly will. And what if you don’t want to do that? Are you going to leave halfway through the dungeon because you don’t want to spend the extra hour? I wouldn’t blame you, but a lot of people would and the toxicity surrounding m+ would EXPLODE
They removed the achievement because gear from the following tier trivialized the content, actually. Blue post on it and everything.
Most people I know who raided Naxx regularly got it long before Ulduar came out. Naxx was super undertuned, especially compared to the level 60 version. This was deliberate to make it more “accessible”.
Also, this further strengthens my argument. Death counters are not difficult, even when they are strict and low. 1 death = key depleted., or in this case no achievement. Tons of people got undying/immortal, even with a few one shot mechanics that existed in Naxx.
Also with a death count and this style of dungeon, classes with immunities and cheat deaths would be meta and stay meta for all of existence. Why would you bring anything else?
The OP IS using his/her brain. Why would two versions hurt at this point in the expansion?
It would not hurt squat, and i think its a great idea to have OPTIONS!
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I agree. Leave the timer for achievement rewards and cosmetics. Go go mentality creates toxic environment in pugs if players are on different levels. I’m afraid to try tanking or healing, because of that. I can’t imagine how stressful healing must be at high levels.
People will hate the classic comparison, but it creates such a nice run when there is time to slow down and strategize. With Retail QoL improvements M+ dungeons could be such great content, if you didn’t need to rush.
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Maybe it wouldn’t hurt gear right now but think about this system at the beginning of the patch. You’d have everyone instantly max m+ geared because all you had to do was slog through the untimed version. Might take you a while but you’d get it. Guilds would require it to trivialize heroic prog. Entire guild groups 465 the second week of the expansion… Smashing 11/12 in a night just cause of gear… Sounds like fun lol
Please see my previous posts. Toxicity would go through the roof or you’d just make content excruciatingly boring after the first 2 weeks
Nobody is going to wait 10 mins to kill a pack of trash lol.
There are countless examples of people already doing this if you read this thread. Gotta remember that just because you won’t do it doesn’t mean others won’t. It would become required for teams that are pushing
Such as? I’m not going to read 500 replies just to not see the evidence of it.
I think you are ignoring the pronounced effect of taking longer. Most people have a limited amount of play time. They won’t gear up in 2 weeks going slow cause they don’t have the time to do so.
Right now I can do 4-5 mythic+ with my guild in a night. If we could go slower I know my guildies would want that. But that also means doing less dungeons each night.
As the difficulty increases the time to completion would significantly increase unless you were good.
The only players who would gear up so fast, are those who have enormous amounts of time to play. Even then the extra time they use to complete would eat into the number of dungeons they would normally complete each week.
The only strict outcome of this is the possibility of greater weekly rewards. But those are weekly, they won’t get you geared out in 2 weeks.
I think that timer for achievement/cosmetics/leaderboard only should solve that problem. People pushing past +15 don’t do it for gear anymore, they will still want to beat the timer. And while it opens up snoozing through the dungeon under +15, it shouldn’t become the norm, because it’s way better to spend time faster clearing lower levels.
I guess only if you want to get as high weekly chest as possible in an undergeared group, then you might want to exploit it, but it seems like a niche case to me.
Edit: In any way, I’m just expressing my own gripes with the system as a casual player. I’m leaving it up to blizzard to design it. I’m just leaving feedback from my own point of view.
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Again ignoring the time taken and it’s effect on gearing. If a dungeon has 10 trash pulls, which most do, that’s another 1hr and 40min for completion. That’s on top of the normal 35+ min they would take to complete it normally.
In a bad group amplify that time further. Would taking 3 hrs for 1 dungeon at a chance to upgrade 1 piece by 10 ilvls out perform taking 3 hrs for 4-5 dungeons for a chance to upgrade 4-5 pieces by 5 ilvls?
Bad groups currently hit walls in their capabilities. They then either run the same level content adnauseum or they quit. All removing timers does is allow for continued progression, albeit at the cost of considerable time gating if they don’t improve. They will still hit a wall but both at higher keys and considerably later in the expac/patch.
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You don’t need to rush. Create your own group, list it for completion, not time, and have at it.