The run would then take like 3 hours. And you’d still have a chance at failure, since you’re completely reliant on CDs. At that point, if some group muddles through it and succeeds, let them have that piece of gear. I just won’t be joining those groups.
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They already can. You already get gear for failed timers.
And yea it would take ages if I wanted to push up to what is difficult content for me. That would be a bad system.
Again maybe.
That would take some serious dedication to say we will wait for lust between each pull, or literally use 4/5 cc’s and pull 1 mob at a time.
They could also add an affix like sitting still for too long sends mobs after you like they are planning for Torghast.
Or just what would likely happen, like what was in TBC, where you only needed to cc 1 or 2 either due to ability or just tank throughput.
So essentially a timer then…
The difference here is that the terrorgru effectively makes it almost impossible to finish a level over time. So more punishing than just a teeshirt need for a bonus bit of loot.
But not one that rushes you through the entire dungeon. It only ticks if you are idle so you don’t afk for 10 minutes between pulls. Pretty different.
Also - there could/should still be leaderboards for things like …“fastest 15”.
Will there be some try-hard that goes for completed +99 at 12 hours 45 min?Maybe…but that’s on them for having that kind of dedication/time.
You don’t have to join any groups where the run takes 3 hours. That’s entirely up to your preference and not the system’s fault.
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It is the systems fault if there isn’t a challenge before that point.
You don’t have to join a group aiming to time a key that is entirely up to your preference. It’s not the systems fault.
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Well at the very least Torghast should be a test as to which of us is right.
I agree most players would take it slower, but there comes a point where going too slow is unrealistic even without a dungeon timer.
It would exceed your IRL “play time” … whether that be work, family, wife/gf, exercise, food, etc.
So we’ll know who’s correct if we start hearing reports of kids leaving their PCs on overnight with one of those little birds pressing the space key repeatedly so they can resume their 1 lust per pull Torghast run day after day.
It is challenging, but you’re doing a 3 hour long cheese.
And of course I don’t have to join a group aiming to time a key. I’d just join an untimed m+. Everyone wins.
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Yea if it were the only thing changing about it then sure.
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Except for the person who leveled his key up and probably want to time it. Who may have been running it 4-5 times now. But hey pugs dont care right? As long as I get something in that 1 run
I’ve done a 17 with 12 deaths and still timed it. I think that’s pretty forgiving.
Also, i pull slow comparatively speaking.
Illegal use of the word toxic. Thanks for trying!
Toghast isn’t a test of “untimed M+” as it changes up your classes gameplay while you’re in it. You can also do it solo, which i can gaurentee most of the skilled players are likely to do so they don’t get held back by their group. While the people that can’t solo it are going to come to the forums crying about how their pug groups always suck and get told, “Just solo it then” with the follow up response, “But it’s too hard”; because the mobs start one shotting them with an interruptible cast they don’t pay attention to.
Simply put timers are a annoying roadblock to gearing my char overall. And stain a otherwise good end game.
The timers alone I can deal with. But timers + other people = horror show. Cause breathing and pacing myself is doable. But pacing a slap happy teen with delusions of power is something my brain can’t tackle at the end of the day.
Not hard…but annoying. I enjoy challenges, I don’t enjoy annoyances.
That’s not what I meant.
I was arguing people won’t just sit around aimlessly waiting for large CDs over and over. The other guy was arguing this is exactly what would happen.
My understanding is Torghast won’t be timed, so we’ll see which player behavior becomes prevalent.
The people complaining about the timer will still be complaining about the timer.
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Theres no alternative for dungeon/group progression because WQ and catchup gear has trivialized it. If you are on a small pop server/wrong end of a faction lopsided server you are reliant on pugging.
Being reliant on pugging means you are likely slave to meta specs and go go go mentality for rio score.
Were there a no timer mode and death count instead maybe it opens a new meta and more options. Maybe Survival isn’t auto decline. Maybe Ret becomes meta. At least a more methodical approach would attract more players if a “death count” mode were an option.
Interesting alternatives, but IMO they sound way more complicated from both a designer and player perspective. If people can’t handle a timer, what’s 50 different random affixes + unusual function of existing CDs gonna do to them?
You know no such thing, that’s your personal bias bleeding through. In fact, as an m+ tank, I’d much rather do a run gaurs tees to be over in 30 minutes than babysit a group for I know will take over an hour.
Less risk, less reward. That’s why m+0 exists, so that people who have anxiety based on a 4 digits and a colon can run content without dealing with the difficulty, if they so choose.
Also, I’m not trying to game a system that does not exist, that’s total crap. I’m saying that the timer is there to punish mistakes. Over pull => key depleted. Under pull => key depleted. Too little dps => key depleted. Idle too long => key depleted. The timer only really addresses the last 2. Removing the timer means that idleness is no longer a factor for depleting a key, and neither is low dps. So, how do you challenger players otherwise? Enrage timers on bosses is a good way. “DPS Checks” like soft or hard enrages and whatnot.
What this entire thread (and the same 20 people who keep making them) is just asking to be handed the rewards of m+ without putting in the effort. Don’t wanna learn the pulls, don’t wanna learn the routes, don’t want to learn cool down management, rotations, gear sets, etc. for a specialized form of endgame. They want to just walk in in whatever gear they have and play however they want and be garnered an upgrade.
That had never been how end game works. I am quite thankful that 5 man content had been added to end game, personally. I like the high risk, high profile play style. This is testament to removing enrage timers from bosses in raids. Where are all those threads? Right, they were laughed out the door 10+ years ago. This is no different.
You lot want handouts, you get prickly when anyone who knows what’s going on tries to offer advice or guidance and then come here all full of salt and vinegar because you failed at something that used to be the domain of the Uber casuals. You used to be able to do all the 5 man content, overhear it, then thrash it on the weekly telling yourselves you’re an awesome player who doesn’t have time to raid. Now that there is challenging small group content that illusion is shattered and it hurts.
On the one hand, I can sympathize with a failed key. It sucks. Especially if the reason is a bad dps pug, for example, that tanks an otherwise fluid run. But that ability to fail is also what makes it fun. If no one could fail, and nothing was challenging, why would anyone play?
Oh, here it goes. “Death counters blah blah blah.” No, that’s not a challenge. Wait between pulls for guardian spirit or death passives, hard CC and single target crap down and you’re basically guaranteed success. You’re not considering the larger picture here.
In m+, the entire dungeon is the encounter. “Trash” isn’t really “trash”. It had mechanics to counter and requires cooldowns and coordination. In a world where there is no timer, the dungeons would be considerably different. Rather than an HP bar to chew through or a mechanic to deal with, most trash would need OSMs or 10 second enrage timers. You keep thinking about removing timers from the current iteration of dungeons, but that’s not the whole picture.
These dungeons are challenging because of the timer, to keep that challenge intact without it, they would need to tighten the tuning of the dungeon to a degree that you and people like you Would still fail, and you’d be right back here on the forums talking about how OSMs with a death counter is “bad design” or “not fair”.
If you play correctly, the timer is a non issue. Just move it off you’re screen and don’t look at it and focus on your own performance. If you perform, you’ll succeed. There’s no rush to it. The way m+ is played now is the way 5 mans have been pulled since vanilla, ruthlessly efficient.
TL;DR: Removing the timer is a horrible idea and counter to what you really want: handouts.
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