You do know you can ignore the timer and still get your purple shinies.
Ultimately all this is about is loot.
It could be changed that failing a timer does not downgrade the key, but you get no loot.
Cue screams and crying about loot.
If doing your own key explicitly state in your description the is not a timed run and do the dungeon at your own pace.
Can’t you already do this?
5 people group up, agree to minimize the window showing the timer, and you just do the dungeon in a chill environment.
You get 2 items instead of 3 at the end if you do miss the time (lesser rewards).
The truth though is the vast majority of groups would go much better if they treated it like a regular dungeon where you just pull 1 pack at a time methodically rather than trying anything fancy like multiple packs, shroud/death skips, etc.
The timer is really forgiving and you can usually full wipe once or twice and still make it until the very high end keys.
I’m fine with it, as long as you don’t get loot from it…
I doubt that will happen… in time!
I thought the timer was the whole point to M+. It’s the challenge mode for dungeons. Am I missing something? Wouldn’t the regular normal and heroic dungeons be the alternative? Or is it the affixes people like (despite all the complaints we see about some of them lol)?
People have the gogogogo mentality in regular dungeons so I don’t see how removing the timer from M+ would help tbh.
The current system is quite solid. It really screens out the baddies on each key. Why take out the timer?
Timer is there for a reason. It’s not necessarily mean rush, rush, rush.
Each Mythic+ key is one notch harder than the last one… higher hp mobs/bosses, and the mobs/bosses hit harder. There’s a timer to check how fast the party to put them down… like a DPS check to make sure the party composition would still need DPS’ers. Do you want 3 Tanks/2 Healers combo? No timer… let them kill everything in 3 hours? Nope, the game should require DPS’ers too.
Also, the timer on current M+ has this mechanics… it gives timer penalties to each death of a party member. The more deaths/the more wipes, the bigger the timer penalty. And most failed groups failed the timer becoz of these wipes (huge timer penalties). Would you feel triumphant if you completed the dungeon with 80 deaths? LOL. The M+ mechanics is solid enough to screen out people not geared/skilled enough and it rewards those who beats the timer… not necessarily fast run but less or zero deaths with adequate DPS.
If you are really looking for a challenge for a 5-man, beat the timer… again with no deaths and with awesome DPS while following the game mechanics… interruptions, dodging fire, dodging front cone, dodging cleave, crowd controls, dispels, stuns,etc. It’s really challenging. It’s really fun. Dont look at the timer, just focus on not dying and kill the mobs before they kill you… LOL. If you think, we are not doing crowd controls on higher keys, you are totally wrong.
At the very highend M+ like M+15 and above, the timer is very short. It would require a very very high DPS to beat it that is sometimes so ridiculously high. What most people do on such scenarios is to skip group of mobs. With Awakened Affix on M+10 and up, group becomes very creative and smart on the route to take. They device a route very efficient and fast with an endgoal of beating the timer.
The problem with most M+ players is that they feel they are entitled to be invited to higher M+ keys when in fact they are incapable of beating it. They have no proof that they deserve high keys. Do you think the veterns started with high io score? Hey, we started from 0 io score… now me comfortably at 1210 io score and still climbing up all on Dungeon Finder.
Improving the io score is easy. Start with the easiest key you could handle… and beat the timer (means no deaths or less deaths becoz of following mechanics… doing interruptions, with sufficient DPS). Then do the same again on the other 11 dungeons. That would give you a base decent io score. Then start doing the next higher key… then do it all over again to the other 11 dungeons. Dont give up. Keep on practicing. Practice makes perfect. If you are a quitter, you would remain a noob.
I didnt start as a Perfect player. I have lots of flaws. There was a time the group hated me becoz I was tunnel visioning on my DPS and not doing interruptions. I accepted my mistakes… moved forward and improve my game. Now I am at M+12 and still climbing.
Right here. Steady pacing will get you through 10 easy.
Too bad you’re in a very small minority of players that Blizzard doesn’t, and shouldn’t, cater to, eh?
Well, the fast group would be able to run 6 keys and get 6x the loot in the same amount of time played, right?
This is assuming the timer is simply removed and everything else remains the same.
I hope you’re not naive enough to think that would be the case.
I’m not against M+ but speed and efficiency have real benefits too in the amount of drops that are generated. There’s nothing that says the quality of any individual drop has to be tied to speed.
You seem to be hanging your hat on the difficulty of M+ being entirely reliant on the existence of a timer. I find that to be completely absurd. The only reason why dungeons lost relevancy in previous expansions was because the rewards never got better and catchup content outweighed it and it also didn’t help that Blizzard never added a new dungeon after the expansion launch of MoP and WoD. In the past they used to send out new dungeons that were more challenging and had better rewards. Nothing crazy difficult, but wipe-capable for the general playerbase.
I hope we can agree that there’s two core aspects to what makes M+ challenging.
I’m not going to say that the timer doesn’t add a dimension to the difficulty of M+ because you should want to time the key and will likely make an effort to do so, but I find it hard to argue it’s an integral part to the challenge of M+ because if you away the timer you still have a dungeon that has been conceptually made more challenging. Take away the affixes and the scaling mobs and you have…a really easy mythic with a timer. I mean I guess you could set the timer down to 5 minutes so groups have to pull the whole damn thing to 3 chest it.
I don’t ignore raiding. I was mythic raiding up until EP and have done a good chunk of mythic raiding in previous expansions. I don’t see a strong correlation to the in-your-face timer that M+ gives and the way that raid fights don’t really capitalize on enrages anymore other than a single boss fight.
Instead raid fights work to wipe you via attrition. You’re out of space, the damage becomes unhealable after so long, stacks get too high, etc etc.
You know what content has a good “timer”? Horrific Visions. It has one because you only have so much insanity and no matter what you do you will run out of it if you don’t complete it in time…but it’s not ACTUALLY a timer.
Dungeons are 5 man content. Raids are bigger dungeons with more people with more complex mechanics. You got me they’re not exactly the same and since we all like comparing how M+ is like a raid encounter let’s be clear on the fact that slapping a timer on a dungeon doesn’t make it a raid fight. The fact that I need to bother clarifying this is astounding to me.
Maybe we should just go back to irrelevant dungeons with bad loot because no matter what you do to them raiding is the hardest content you can do.
Edit: Hellz yah post #420, #blazingit.
Wait wat?
You list the timer as core aspect of what makes m+ challenging, then you turn around and say that its hard to argue that its an integral part to the challenge?
If you take away the timer, the dungeon is still more challenging than m0. I am not debating that. I am saying it then becomes a ton more easier than what it previously was.
It can be both.
So?
Take away the timer and you have something that you don’t have to play well on average to get by. You just have to be persistent.
Same thing.
If the damage becomes unhealable, thats a timer. You know you have a specific timer to beat it. If after 8 minutes there is too much damage to heal, you have an 8 minute timer.
I don’t know what you are trying to clarify. I am saying its not a raid fight. Dungeons are not based around the boss fights, like raids are. Are you clarifying that you are agreeing with me?
I would like to see timers as a option for mythics and not as a default.
They already can be. Ignore the timer, finish the dungeon, loot the chest and get a key 1 lower.
Done.
Just like you aren’t arguing that a M+ without a timer is still challenging I am not debating that there is an aspect of difficulty added to trying to complete a M+ in time. I mean…that’s pretty much true of anything. I just don’t put a lot of weight into it and I don’t think it’s necessary. I can acknowledge it as a design concept and still say the design isn’t necessary.
It can be both.
Up until a certain difficulty. There are some players who will never complete a +20, no matter how much time you give them. Same reason some people don’t touch mythic or heroic raids.
It is, but it’s not in your face and you have the ability to outplay it a bit. For example on a boss that starts dropping crap on the floor and the idea is that you’ll run out of space eventually the fact is that a bad player could mess up and eat up a huge chunk of the room which may screw up the attempt. But good players will tighten up as best as possible to perserve the room as best as possible giving them more time. It’s actually not the same as a straight timer at all.
They were, once upon a time. You must be a new player and have never done a TBC heroic or a Cata launch dungeon. They still can be on a Tyrannical week anyways.
Then hide it and it’s not in your face at all. A good player will do good damage/keep people alive / have a good route and a bad player will not do those things and it will eat into your time.
It’s the same thing.
If you remove the timer, mistakes still have to be equally punishing. The timer is the best, most straightforward judge of success, but let’s spitball here. If the timer isn’t there, how else could you punish mistakes? Im assuming this discussion is in good faith and you lot are not just lobbying for easier loot.
Permadeath - no rezzes.
Even more One-Shot mechanics.
Hard enrage mechanics
Mana drain mechanics
Dampening
Purge mechanics
Neutralize cooldowns/consumables
Do these sound more fun?
How can you even say this? Adding a timer makes each level up in key significantly more challenging. As keys go up in difficulty, you’re forced to do bigger pulls if you want to chew through the sheer hp of the trash in the dungeon and make the timer. Not only are you fighting mobs with more health that do way more damage, but you’re fighting more mobs at once. The difficulty in execution ramps up much faster than key levels do.
Taking away the timer takes away a significant amount of pressure and difficulty from the experience. Whats left in a dungeon where CD’s and CC can be used on every pull to nullify nearly all of the mechanics. Oh, an un-CCable mob? Just taunt it and kite it while everyone kills it and the healer stands around with this thumb up his ***.
“Lets cc 2 mobs from this 3 pack and pull them one at a time. We’ll have 4 players worth of kicks + stuns + CD’s + utility to deal with each mob.”
Yeah that sounds fun. /s
I would love that.
As it stands, M+ is a nervewracking, stressful, and totally un-fun experience. I’m open to any change that would address that.