And I would argue that this is better than giving out a 30 min deserter debuff to someone who doesn’t deserve it.
“The ends justify the means” would be a more appropriate expression, but I get what you’re saying.
That being said, it’s easy to say this when you’re not the one that’s getting slapped with a 30 min deserter debuff because you dared to question why a priest is rolling need on leather drops.
I think it’s complete and utter hyperbole that you’ve never been kicked or seen someone kicked.
Joking aside, I’m glad that you’ve never experienced this. However, it demonstrates a real lack of empathy when you think it’s not happening just because you’ve never experienced it. And to be fair, you didn’t say it never happens, just that it happens so seldom that it should be ignored. But I don’t think it should be ignored. People get kicked from dungeons unjustly. You know it happens. I’m arguing that the deserter debuff should be changed because it’s too harsh of a punishment for people that get kicked unjustly.
Maybe make it so that the debuff starts small and ramps up in duration as you get kicked repeatedly. Or try removing the debuff entirely and see what happens. Run it over a week or a weekend. A change like that should be easy to implement and just as easy to roll back. Surely there’s a compromise in here somewhere so that trolls get punished and innocent players don’t get punished so harshly.
You think on the biggest ally server with over 30k alliance players my guild chose to just carry me since wotlk launched instead of replacing or benching me like we have done to others?
I’ve seen a Shaman roll on leather, I asked why are you rolling on leather when Mail is your armour type and you rolling on and wearing leather is making it so that they’re missing out on an extra 5% of their main stat (which would be Agility). They replied with that they’re aware (not sure how true that is but I digress).
I was on my Rogue at the time which luckily didn’t need the loot, if it did and they rolled on it I’d of tried to kick them.
I’ve never been kicked because there’s never been a reason to kick me, I have however seen others get kicked for reasons that are justified. A Mage that was rolling need on everything was kicked, people that are afk/offline are kicked but even after all that a tank in my example was a DK who wore the cloth heirloom helm, leather and mail, in total 7 pieces of gear that wasn’t plate and we never kicked him because the DPS and healer could carry even with his bad gear.
Which goes to show that even if you’re bad at your role you still might not get kicked.
Never said that it doesn’t happen, I said that it doesn’t happen nearly as much as others are saying or rather, isn’t happening left and right as some would suggest.
Any system in place would get abused, the one we have now is fine there’s no reason to change what isn’t broken.
If the people who are getting unjustly kicked from dungeons aren’t punished so harshly, there would probably be fewer complaints.
What are you saying here? You’re right, shamans shouldn’t roll on leather, especially if there is a rogue that needs it. You would be right to try to kick that shaman. What does that have to do with what I said. I got kicked from a dungeon because a priest rolled need on a leather drop and I called him out on it. I was unjustly kicked from that dungeon. You might say the ends justify the means, but my point is that you probably wouldn’t be saying that if it happened to you.
Did you read the following sentence? Here it is:
That’s true, any system can be abused but a system can be changed to limit the impact it has when it is abused. My argument is that penalty is too harsh for players who are unjustly kicked from dungeons, which is something you don’t deny happens. So my question is do you think the penalty is too harsh? Why or why not?
A Shaman was rolling on leather gear, they weren’t kicked.
I asked why they’re rolling on leather gear, I didn’t get kicked.
Sorry that it happened to you but people kicking others for no reason doesn’t happen as much as people like you are suggesting. If I got kicked for no reason I’d move on and join another group, if it happened so often that I’m barely completing dungeons then I’d actually see if I’m doing something wrong and not immediately assume that the people who are kicking me are malicious.
There’ll always be trolls who’d kick others for no reason doesn’t matter what system is in place but you’re walking around and always smelling s*** then maybe it’s you who smells.
I did, but I felt that I still should’ve typed that because if it’s so uncommon then why address it? Shortening the timer with it ramping up only benefits the people who abandon dungeons because they didn’t get the “right” dungeon.
Is it too harsh? No. Why? Because it’s there to punish people who either leave the dungeon for X reason or those who are being toxic, AFK and a myriad of other reasons.
It’s unfortunate that there’s some “friendly fire” but no system is perfect and it’s a fine price to pay.
The problem with that group isn’t the tank, its the other sheep that are willing to put up with the tank and kick the healers. The rest of the group could have very easily told the tank to go pound sand.
They didn’t though for one reason, the group already felt beholden to the tank because they didn’t want to wait on one. Now imagine if there was no debuff, just exactly what tanks could pull and get away with zero downside. They would be back in to another group before you could hit the find another player button.
There are not that many complaints though. Most of them are coming from rotating alts who want it changed so they can be toxic or carried.
Blizzard has the actual numbers. They can see how many vote kicks are initiated and if the number was an actual problem they could change this but I am sure the data shows it is not an issue.
I’m not talking about how often it happens; I’m telling you that it DOES happen. You know it happens. The difference between you and me is that I actually care that it happens. Your stance it “It never happens to me so I don’t care if it happens to others.” That’s fine, but you could at least acknowledge it. I would commend you for being honest.
…oh okay so you DO acknowledge that players sometimes get unfairly kicked and punished too harshly for it but you don’t care.
Personally, I don’t think injustices should be ignored simply because they don’t happen that often. I disagree with this heavy-handed, one-size-fits-all blanket 30 min deserter debuff for every player all the time because it’s not fair to players who are kicked unjustly. You shouldn’t punish honest players unfairly. I think a proper balance can be struck between punishing trolls and not punishing honest players too harshly, I just think it’s not balanced very well right now.
Like, hanging 100 people to catch 1 criminal is wrong. You might kick back and say “Whatever, the ends justify the means, it’s not a perfect system but it’s a fine to price to pay.” But if YOU were on those gallows, you’d be singing a different tune.
That’s because you’re uneducated/uninformed/ignorant to what was going on prior to the 30 min debuff.
In OG Cata there were 30-45 min wait times for DPS before the debuff. Why? Because tanks and healers would hold groups hostage. Tanks and healers would also sell RDF Queues. Get the paying person into the run, and then not tank/heal until the group kicked them so they could sell another heroic queue.
So Blizzard implamented a 10 min debuff at first… it didn’t help so they went to 15… that didn’t help and they finally landed on 30 minutes.
NOW because of this, DPS Q times are like 3-5 minutes rather than 30-45.
No realistic suggestion you give will be better than what’s currently in place. It’s not our fault you’re not smart enough to understand why this 30 min debuff is not only fine, but necessary.
Well if people really don’t care about innocent players getting unfairly punished for something they didn’t do because the ends justify the means, I can’t really argue with that. Changing people’s attitudes about something is pretty much impossible.
It’s not that people don’t care. It sucks for that individual, but the punishment is 30 mins from queuing on THAT character. It’s not a tragedy and nothing like your disingenuous argument re: hanging. Could you blow it out of proportion more than that?
No perfect system exists, and I see that you have zero alternative solutions other than to say “hey, look at me, i care about the innocent!” which solves what exactly?