Go to wowprogress and look at the number of guilds who cleared Uldir compared to those that have cleared BoD.
19,000 cleared Uldir, 12,000 have cleared BoD.
You didn’t read my post at all, which is fine I guess, I don’t expect much from people on here. I never said anyone quit because of not having ML, I said that no guild is going to last more than a month or 2 if they are abusing trials and mishandling loot.
I am against ML and I am VERY happy Blizzard removed it and instituted PL on a universal scale.
Thank You Blizzard. Best Change ever. Plz don’t cave to the loud elitists and their sycophants.
If 20 people show up, then they should all have an equal chance at loot. If you hate your fellow team mates and want to refuse them loot, do not invite them. If you want your “special friend list” to be the only ones to get gear, raid with less people or learn to appreciate your whole team that you needed to down that boss.
Thanks Blizz for being so forward looking, despite the noise!
It sounds like nothing would change for you if Master Loot was in the game right now. You would be in a guild that uses personal loot. So why exactly do you care how other guilds want to distribute loot?
While that is correct in theory, that is’nt how it works in practice and anyone who has played this game for more than an expansion knows this. Raiding guilds small and big and players in general, more often mimic the systems of high end guilds (the only place you have a real arguement for ML) in a futile attempt to acheive similar success. Prior to cata, it was near impossible to find a raiding guild that wasn’t using DKP or some varient. Not because it was a good loot system but because reasons. In the less structured guilds like most everyday raiding guilds are, you had system abuse. After over a decade of dealing with DKP, EPGP, Loot Councils and dweebish loot masters who want to please their artifical friends; im happy PL is the standard and not the exception. ML was good for the minority and bad for the majority.
But how to handle trials wasn’t your original point. Your original point was the removal of guild choice with regards to loot methods. Obviously I read your post why would I blindly reply to a comment? Quit being ridiculous and dramatic. Stop abandoning ship. We’re discussing why Blizzard should or shouldn’t reinstate the Master Loot option.
You’re also making a reference to one site and likely only one raid difficulty, which is hardly an accurate representation of the scope of players (or more accurately, guilds) partaking in the raid scene from raid to raid. Why are we even discussing this again?
Clearly we’re both intelligent enough to define the fact that you merely don’t like that the system was changed and would like to return to times of old. Like Ion said, we get it, even if your guild harmoniously distributed loot for years this seemed like an unfair change. To be frank, it was, for guilds like yours. We return to the anecdotes. Also, to be frank, your guild doesn’t matter. This isn’t about you or your guild. It’s about the game’s community as a whole. A few thousand guilds aren’t going to cut it. I’m willing to bet that they would have made the change even if a majority of guilds did distribute loot harmoniously, although no one would have those metrics.
I started in BC, have raised every expansion since then and have never been in a guild that uses DKP or EPGP. That is over 11-12 years 5 different servers, and 20+ guilds.
There were plenty of personal loot guilds in Legion. I was in one on my alt. You act like they were impossible to find but there were plenty.
Idk what my guild would do if given the option.
I do like that instead of searching for guilds that have a time frame and a loot method I agree with, the loot method I agree with is universal. So that is one less thing to even consider.
But I have played since Vanilla. I have experienced Ninjaing. I have seen it and I have had it happen to me. I have seen items given to girlfriends and best friends to entice then to show up, and the guild drama that ensues.
People like to pretend it was a myth or just cruddy guilds, but it happened too much.
Wowprogress, raiderio, warcraftlogs, etc. All of these sites will show a big drop in raid participation across all difficulties from Uldir to BoD. I bring this up because Ion spent a ton of time trying to say that trials didn’t have a fair chance at loot a lot of the time. This is out of touch and not current with the raid scene. Guilds need trials, they need good geared players, you can’t afford to not give a trial loot because you simply won’t progress and you’ll end up losing more people.
You’ve probably never experienced killing a mythic boss after 200 wipes then looting a ring that you’ll never use but you can’t trade it to your teammate because of personal loot restrictions. This happens way too often and it feels terrible, worse than looting 5 bows with no hunter in the group.
I actually don’t care if ML comes back or not, but at the very least remove the trade restrictions between guild members. If it’s truly personal loot, let me decide if I keep my loot or not.
But those numbers rise and fall all the time. What suddenly makes BfA the exception to the rule? Graph the numbers from Emerald Nightmare to Trial of Valor, and you’ll see similarities between that and the graph of Uldir to Battle of Dazar’alor. You’re linking a number on a website to guild disbands, which isn’t even an accurate representation of the facts. The truth is you don’t have those facts, nor do I. For either of us to claim truth would be fallacious. Thus, the only thing we can do is say it’s both until we have the right information. If you have time to comb through tens of thousands of guilds to figure out if they disbanded (don’t forget to follow name changes), then be my guest. Let me know what you find in ten years time, and don’t forget to apply retroactive procedures to the coroutines!
Now you’re attempting to make it personal, which doesn’t add value to your argument. It does nothing for you, you’re wrong, but that’s not really my point.
If they remove the trade restrictions, then it’s just Master Loot again. What’s to stop a guild from saying all loot must be traded to the Raid Leader (or council of whatever), and then it gets distributed? Literally solves nothing.
Most of the people pretending it didn’t happen are often the ones who did it to others or benefited from the practice and thought it was fine.
Never said this. WoD was where it really ramped up and it continued in Legion/BFA.
Wowprogress tracks guilds who have killed bosses based on the Blizzard API. It’s pretty darn accurate.
No it’s not. You have the loot in your bags, you can choose to keep it or give it away. You can choose to stay in the guild or leave. If you want to keep that 5 ilvl upgrade for transmog instead of giving it to your guild mate who it would be a 20 ilvl upgrade for, that’s your choice. Under the current rules you wouldn’t have that choice.
You keep repeating this line, but you don’t leave a guild that’s progressing, especially on a server where other guilds are further behind than your guild is, just on the basis of that you don’t like the way that loot is given out.
That’s not a ‘choice’ in mythic guilds, that’s raider career suicide.
Strange how most of those against masterloot are people it doesn’t even affect, just stick to personal loot in normal mode and don’t worry about what mythic guilds are doing.
Explain to me how you can do this for an extended period of time and not have your guild die.
Also if I was the most selfish raid leader ever, I would still gear up the people who would best help us kill the next progression boss. Because the faster we progress, the faster we get more loot drops. If I give all the gear to myself we are going to be stuck on the same boss for weeks and I wouldn’t get any more upgrades. It actually doesn’t make sense.
Can you link me a guild that consistently progressed through mythic in all tiers of Legion while at the same time mishandling loot by giving it all to the officers first and not giving trials any loot? I’ll wait.
You didn’t directly state that, sure, but your logic says that a drop in that number must mean that the guild disbanded. It’s nonsense to make such a claim, and then to further the nonsense be so adamant that it’s the truth.
Since you’re so hellbent on this topic holding any relevancy to the point of the thread, then explain the discrepancy in numbers from site to site.
What’s that have to do with the price of eggs? Just because it’s in your inventory doesn’t mean that guild can’t enforce the rule. Does that mean you have to stay? Of course not, but it does give them the right to refuse you access to the raid, right? It’s like a store refusing to serve those who don’t wear shirts. You’re obligated, based on the rules, to show up with a shirt. Thus, you would be obligated, based on the rules to hand over any loot that you receive.
The point here is that you don’t have to give up the loot, just like you can go to a store that doesn’t enforce full attire. It may actually have an impact, and more than what you’re accounting for here. Some realms don’t offer the player much choice, which you don’t account for. Monopolies are a thing in this game.
Let’s reply to this the same way that you replied above.
So you can’t link me a progression guild that consistently mishandled loot but still progressed faster than other guilds? You seem to say that this guild exists on a server you know of.
No one other than Blizz has any of that information. Not even you and your much vaunted websites.
The only party that has such information and all relevant and accurate information is Blizzard.
And they made the right call by removing ML while people like you make wild claims based off of inaccurate information.
19,000 guilds cleared Uldir, 12,000 have cleared BoD. 7,000 less guilds in one tier. If they didn’t disband or stop raiding, what happened? Did they skip heroic and go to Mythic even though Mythic participation is down as well? I don’t understand what else these numbers could be.