Literally all speculation with no back up of information
I can make things up too!
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Except it isnât made up, I went through the data before the ret buffs and made a lengthy post about itâŚ
At the time, not only were fury warriors much more likely to have an Algalon kill relative to the numbers doing the raid than ret, the absolute number of them were much higher.
I still have that data saved⌠As of 2/6 when Algalon was still pretty cutting edge content and guilds were being the most picky about raid comps and fully evaluating what classes they brought for utilitiesâŚ
286 / 160732 fury warriors
56 / 59811 arms warriors
71 / 34341 prot warriors
14 / 29167 gladiator warriors
171 / 127791 Ret paladins
Literally 2x the number of DPS warriors got Algalon kills relative to ret paladins by that point, so if DPS warrior is in such a bad place, what did that make rets? (Iâm actually kind of amused that it was exactly 2x if you count fury and arms together. If you exclude arms, fury had a 67% advantage over ret)
Ret utility just flatly wasnât enough to make ret useful enough to bring, even on the fight that DSac is MOST useful on. They preferred Fury by a large margin.
They still do, but by a smaller margin.
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Gee are we missing a bit of data there? I didnât realise paladins could only run ret.
Letâs see the prot and holy numbers too buddy.
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I compared DPS vs DPS. Itâs common knowledge that paladin has high representation on tanking and healing. And in the post I linked to showed that prot and holy were overrepresented, so that wasnât left out.
The data shows quite clearly that ret paladins werenât even close to being on par with DPS warriors as far as desirability is concerned. Even if prot and holy werenât overpowered, and just on par with everyone else, youâd still have seen guilds hard avoiding ret because the utility was never good enough to guarantee the spec raid positions.
Even now, after the buffs, ret is still getting fewer Algalon kills every week than just fury warriors alone.
Ret isnât better than your entire class. Period.
The whole of the paladin class? Sure, vastly, but thatâs irrelevant when talking about a small buff to their spec that was very clearly underperforming in a way that fury wasnât, and isnât.
Nope I want to see you post it. You deliberately left it out. Strangely you put prot warriors in there but not prot paladins.
Gee I wonder why⌠maybe because it would weaken your case and make another case about class representation. Hmm
Itâs also a bad case for you to make that ret paladins arenât going to Algalon. That could be because ret paladins are weak. But equally it could be that prot paladins and holy paladins are so strong that theyâre cannibalizing the underperforming spec?
I use âunderperformingâ lightly, this is in comparison to two S tier specs inside of one class.
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Itâs on my computer at work, earliest I can post it would be Monday.
Prot paladins had almost triple the relative representation of prot warrior. (I just lack the exact numbers at this time) and holy paladins were about 33% higher than the next healer.
So yeah, prot paladin is OP on that fight, and guilds are heavily skewed toward using them.
Thatâs not an argument against ret, or an argument in favor of fury.
They do weaken the value of Retâs utility. Itâs stackable utility between paladins, but itâs not infinitely stackable with equal value.
If you brought 2 holy paladins to Algalon (or a prot and a holy), you have no need of any utility ret brings.
Those specs being brought in line would have given ret a bit more breathing room, but theyâd have to be actively bad at the role to start considering taking the worst PvE DpS spec by far in order to get a DSac.
Actually it might be, if weâre approaching it from the lens of class representation.
But ret paladins donât seem to want to have that conversation because thereâs 1% of rets who run both specs as ret in different ways. So it wouldnât be fair to them to bring it up.
The 99% of rets who run the S tier OS? Well letâs not discuss that!
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Shattering Throw is unique - just saying. I mean, if weâre being honest about unique buffs brought to the raid.
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top 5 on what fight, that isnt a cleave scenario ?
Cleave is 1 boss out of raid tier mostly, single target is nearly always relevant. Not to mention, cleave is all they have, if it is mega aoe they fall off cause of the 3-4 target cap, while stuff like feral is infinitely scaling with targets.
Even bladestorm has a 4 target limit, a huge cooldown, while swipe is a spamable ability.
Sad reality is that it is a net dps loss, so you dont even use it anymore.
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Now you are making numbers up.
Itâs pretty common for ret to run a ret off-spec so that they donât need to give up DPS to have DSac in the majority of fights where it isnât needed.
The rets at the top percentiles on WCL arenât the rets trading off seals of the pure with Divine Guardian.
I canât imagine many (or any) of the top end guilds in those early Algalon kills had those rets swap out of their S tier spec in order to be ret on the fight.
Youâd get more milage out of literally any other healer or tank swapping to DPS.
Well it is what it is.
It is as if you can HS change your dual spec and get summoned back in less than 5 minutes and play whatever of the 2 S-tier off specs that class offers, provided you have gathered the gear ?
Well, shattering throw specifically gets better as your physical DPS all approach the armor pen cap as itâs the only way to drop a boss to 0 armor. So it could see a noticeable uptick in power by the time ICC rolls around.
thatâs kind of a major limitation when talking about high end content pushes.
No it wont, by that point the dps loss on your own warrior is also higher.
It actually isnt at all, since tanks and healer gear in the plate category is in abundance vs all your other specs and classes. I have 5k tanking gear on my OT (not first but 2nd choice OT), while my warrior is 5.3k GS fury. This was all done in our alt PUG run too, not even the main raid.
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Itâs a math problem. Thereâs a breakpoint where using shattering throw is better for the raid than it is a loss in your personal DPS. I honestly have no idea where that point is, but given that ArP gets exponentially better as boss armor approaches zero, I have a hard time believing that the breakpoint wonât be met.
Yes, but we are also 12 weeks into the tier at this point. The good early tank/healing gear is going to be going to your main spec tanks and healers first, leaving your off-spec likely fairly undergeared relative to them during early progression.
Could you in that situation still tank some things? Sure, but it would have been pretty unwise to toss that kind of tank against Algalon in those early weeks.
And even if you have the off-spec, your guild probably has 2 tanks, and a solid healer core that doesnât actually require it ever be used in your main 25 man runs.
Itâs been exceedingly rare over my WoW career that off-specs in a different role are used well outside of a main tank or healer swapping out to DPS on fights that need fewer tanks/healers. Main spec DPS going tank or heals is way more uncommon.
That still means your warrior is exponentially losing more of his own dps and important cds to use it. How is that so hard to understand, it is only worth it to use it before pull, which can be hard to do and not lose dmg still by finding a way to get to the boss now with no rage.
I had near full bis outside of the best 25m pieces. You can grab most your 2nd bis from 10m too. I had basically 4.8k+ for 6 weeks, which is a lot higher since you were using bad trinkets until you got Ulduar stam ones.
I tanked algalon OT 6-7 weeks ago on that char (25 and 10m).
It does, it now handles all OT in 1 of the 2 runs we do, most of the time, and can be flexibly swapped between the two runs, if they need my healer or warrior.
Clearly you been in some bad guilds then i suppose, cause your main tanks and healers are not gonna be grabbing any good dps gear over your mains, but your DPS will be grabbing that tank and healer loot that no longer has anyone needing it quite fast, especially tank loot, simple probability my guyâŚ
No, thatâs not how it works. Your warrior loses some rage and a portion of a weapon swing, and in return gets 10s of the same damage buff it just gave the raid to make up for the fact that it cost them to apply it.
Shaving off that last bit of armor would not take a whole lot to make up for what the warrior lost.
Most guilds arenât doing 2 Ulduar 25 man runs per week.
The vast majority only have a roster for 1.
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No they lose roughly 2second+ of dps with full cds and buffs up.
How come it isnt worth it even now with the increasing ARP, it has gotten worse not better⌠Do you even know anything about the spell in question or are you just making questimations. Research it insteadâŚ
That is really irrelevant, 2 rosters didnt impact the acquisition of gear i had. It would have been the same if i had only 1 raid.
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It hugely impacts how often youâd need to use that off-spec.
Looking at the default warrior sim settings, it looks like using shattering throw is a personal DPS loss in Ulduar gear of about 130 DPS.
I find it pretty hard to believe that the entirety of your physical DPS having 20% less armor on the boss for 10s doesnât more than compensate for that personal loss.