You can also talk about the much more relevant CDs like dsac and pally buffs.
Nonsense, I feel way more useless in 10 mans than I do in 25s.
How? You are far less likely to have everything your class brings covered already and the tuning is FAR less stringent, so the potential DPS difference between you and rogues is meaningless.
Yep, and after your holy paladin gets added to the group, those hardly matter. You almost never need multiples of any of those in a fight. If you need multiple defensive cooldowns, Holy paladin brings 2!
The paladin class has some good utility, but the benefits of stacking it are really pretty minor. The second DSac isnât as useful as the first, and the third isnât as useful as the second, etc, and thatâs really the only stackable utility worth mentioning. (How often do you really need multiple hands of salvation or protection?)
You make excellent arguments for bringing a holy paladin and a prot paladin. Those are both good at their role and bring those utilities! Why on earth would you choose to bring the worst DPS to get what you could out of the best healer or tank?
Because unbeknownst to most paladins, utility factors much more heavily into a 10 man. Dps is also a major factor, you can look at my parses. Iâm equal GS with the rest of my 10 man and parsing well above average but still coming up 6th or 7th dps in a 10 man.
If thereâs no stam buff from a priest, you feel it. If there are no paladin buffs, you feel it. If thereâs no pally tank, you feel it. If thereâs no lust, you feel it.
Nobody thinks âDamn wish we had a warrior in this groupâ.
Itâs ridiculous and you are deaf to the issue. Just butt out of it already.
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Then you buy some runescrolls so you donât feel it.
Also⌠Commanding shout is also a lot of health, which is why we have definitely had moments where we have quite literally said âwe wish we had a warriorâ in 10mâŚ
Uhhh, you can get 8% kings from drums. 3% damage reduction from a disc priest. Mp5 from shamansâŚ
So I guess youâd miss might if you had 0 paladins, and would need a second warrior to cover that and commanding shout.
Thatâs basically your position on warriors because you ignore pretty much the entire context of whatâs available to your raids, what you need to kill the bosses, and how raid groups are actually built and optimized.
Commanding shout has been losing value since Naxx. Kings as a % buff gets stronger as the expansion goes and commanding shout counts for less and less of a % of overall hp in the raid. So thatâs your argument there lost.
A warrior isnât a direct replacement for a paladin and you know it. People will take a DK or a feral druid now well before they take a warrior.
Just butt out already, all your points were just rebuked and you have nothing left to say.
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Just go grab a holy pally and ms ur way to 2200 easy tho
So does fort, and most buffs. You are right, kings doesnât, but only 2% of kings is even unique to paladins, so as far as health goes, commanding shout will always be a larger chunk of HP than that 2% stam.
Not that it matters much, because Commanding shout isnât good because itâs a certain % of your health, itâs because it can get you over thresholds of surviving or not.
No class is a direct replacement of another. You take different classes and specs for different reasons. Warriors (specifically Fury) will always be welcome in a raid. They are now, they will be later. The âyou take X spec firstâ only comes into play after your first warrior.
Yes, rebuked badly.
my man
/10char
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Commanding shout loses value as the raids continue, thatâs a fact. Weâve already seen commanding shout at its strongest. And warriors werenât being taken during Naxx even with that in mind.
Now we get an iLvl increase that benefits rogues more than warriors when it was supposedly our buff. We have a buff to ret paladins and a buff to feral druids. DKs and enh shamans were already above both warrior dps specs. Youâre being utterly obtuse to how ridiculous this balancing is becoming.
Ferals and rets didnât have to wait until ICC for their power boost. I donât see why warriors should have to now.
lol this is a legit dumb thing to say dude
dont have a sunder? Rogues can do it - direct replacement
dont have thunderclap? - pallies and dks do this <direct replacement with better results
dont have challenging shout for freya adds? - feral now brings this
just saying you can easily replace one class for another, that is why multiple classes bring the same buff/debuff
literally the only unique buff warrior brings is commanding shout
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Well, duh⌠You could make a raid of almost all subtlety rogues and clear Naxx without issue.
Warriors HAVE been in demand in Ulduar. Commanding shout never becomes so weak as to not be valuable, just like power word: fortitude. It will guarantee a warrior slot even at the end of the expansion (although by then your DPS is better relative to the pack as well)
Most specs donât have a unique buff to them. They arenât supposed to. That was exactly what they were moving away from in WotLK because TBC was a tangled web of trying to cover them all.
Lots of things can get optimized out when you are super min/maxing your composition for speed runs. Ret paladins are still one of them even after the buff. Resto druids run into it. Warriors in general are not at risk of it, and in that min/max setup, you are probably bringing a Fury.
Warrior is fine.
And yes, you can swap stuff out, itâs just hilarious to me that youâll point out all of the places it could happen to warriors while pretending that ret paladins are immune to it.
Stop making the ICC argument or Iâll just stop responding to you apart from copy+paste. Get this in your head:
It is not fair for you to suggest weâll scale better later when that was going to be the case for ret paladins and feral druids by all accounts. Both did not have to wait to get better.
Itâs a ridiculous argument and I wonât tolerate it in any discussion on the matter.
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oh damn there are other classes that bring Dsac? There are other classes that bring Aura mastery? There are other classes that bring BoP? Paladins get to be the best tank/healer class? while being top DpS?
please show me the other class that brings dsac/judgement of wisdom/aura mastery/ blessing of protection/ hand of salvation
name one other class that can lower another persons threat - and dont even mention pain suppression because nobody is using that to lower threat, that is a tank cd
one please
stop being disengenous with your comments, for a class that is S tier healing/tank and super amazing dps that didnt need it - post crying nerf - you sure have your head up your bum
if warriors got a buff - how would this hurt you exactly? Your raid clears content faster if you have a warrior? and⌠thats it
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As far as ret is concerned? Yes. Holy paladins and prot paladins, which will be selected for a raid composition well before you ever bring a ret for it.
Holy paladins bring both aura mastery AND DSac.
And how many fights exist that need those stacked beyond what your auto include prot and holy paladins?
How often is this relevant? Once maybe per raid? None of the tanks have threat issues, and again, your holy/prot paladin fixes the one guy thatâs riding too close.
We deal less DPS than Fury, which will keep pulling ahead of us, and Fury warriors are all complaining that their DPS is trash.
So are fury warriors better than super amazing?
Yes, ret paladin has utility spells. Those utility abilities are solid. Iâm not, and have never argued that they are bad.
The problem is that raids very rarely need them from a ret paladin. If you need defensive raid cooldowns, you bring a holy paladin, not a ret one. Once youâve got the two S tier paladin specs, ret offers very little relevant utility to clearing the raid.
The same applied to the ret buff, but oh man Fury warriors are acting like it killed their firstborn child.
Or better yet make dual wielding 1handers more compelling!
Rets would still be desirable based off of their utility
warriors are supposed to bring huge damage - that is our role as a damage spec - we have like 0 utility
the thing you fail to see is in any given situation why would you bring a warrior over a ret? For sunders? There are no unique buffs warriors bring to say âyes we need oneâ there are situations where âwe need another dsac, salv, bop, freedom, cleanse, judgement of wisdom hereâ that arise.
Ret pallies are more desirable than warriors in every aspect, i think you fail to see this. Which means why bring a warrior?
You already got your buff, and Iâm happy about it. I donât understand why you would be upset with reciprocation.
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This Right here.
They do add a 1hander component to the talent at some point (cata?) but 1H DW never really comes back after TG was implemented.
âThe same applied to the ret buffâ - AND YOU GOT IT.
Thereâs no defence for you after that. Buff warriors already Blizzard. Or give us battle res and innervate, weâd still be picked after feral druids everything else considered.
A good compromise would be to maybe add an effect to all Ulduar weapons into the t8 set bonus that remove titans grip penalty. That way warriors wonât have to wait until icc, and wonât be too powerful then either.
Youâd think so, but they were one of the least used specs on Algalon before the buffs (fury had like 50% more kills than ret), so like Iâve been saying, it did not translate to real world practice.
Their utility is great on paper. It could be used very well in a raid, thereâs just literally no need for it (which is mostly the fault of holy/prot).
Itâs also Retâs role as a damage spec, and our effective utility after bringing the good paladin specs in your 25 man, was also similarly poor.
But it is better, which is why I am happy that ret still averages under Fury. It just didnât need to be 10% under Fury.
They bring more damage and stop your rogues from needing to expose so they can deal more damage, and they have a minor raid DPS cooldown, and a desirable health buff (although you only need 1 warrior for that).
And yet before the buffs, literally 50% more fury warriors were being brought to Algalon than ret, which is a fight where Ret utility is quite good. If ret isnât even more desirable on the fight MOST suited to our utility, what is the reason to use them on other fights?
Ret would need holy and prot paladins trashed in order to make our utility less redundant for a raid.
Even after the buffs, there are far more DPS warriors getting Algalon kills on a weekly basis than ret, so clearly you arenât being replaced.
âDonât be mad about a class getting buffs, it doesnât hurt youâ
Signed: the only class mad about a class getting buffs.
Yâall are focusing on the wrong target. Being mad at rets for being buffed from last to last place is a bad look.
Itâs much more reasonable to be upset about feral (another DPS class with plenty of utility) being buffed from fury levels to top tier. I agree with that complaint.
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