That map doesn’t refute lore you know.
“The high elves had built their new kingdom — a kingdom centered on the Sunwell, the heart of their new culture — atop ancient Amani ruins, ruins still considered hallowed ground by the trolls.”
The Troll Wars? The same wars STARTED by the Trolls? Again, we don’t have evidence of the elves starting this conflict.
Just going to ignore the part in parenthesis about the Second War Horde working with the Burning Legion, are we?
I’m just going to point this out…
The conflict began when the Amani, hungry for revenge after having been driven from their lands by the high elves millennia prior, launched an all-out assault on Quel’Thalas.
They literally went after the elves and started the war after a millenia.
That’s some serious obsession right there.
The Amani aren’t exactly innocent here.
No, but this is:
Zul’jin retired to the city of Zul’Aman, capital of the Amani trolls, where he called upon mysterious dark powers to rebuild his army.
The Orcs were being lead by Doomhammer not Gul’dan. They were fighting of their own accord.
So where are all the Demons or Void beings in Zul’aman… unless “dark powers” is using your loas to help you fight I dont see what “darkness” was being used… also So using “dark power” damns you to Revendreth… so every void elf is damnned to hell… sound logic.
You got it wrong. In order to become the Warlord he challenged their leaders, that is the rite every chiftain has to make. That was the best way to unite all the forst troll tribes whcih were scattered. He gave them purpose, he gave them aim and hope.
That didn’t happen.
That didn’t happen too. No Loas were killed. He was channeling their powers to himself.
That is a huge difference.
But we’re the ones who raided him, invated his stronghold becuase he said mean words.
Fun fact - In Vanilla it was hinted via Revantusk that Horde would unite again with Zul’Jin, Revantusk tribe that was allied with Horde since vanilla were his devout followers.
Unfortunately Blizzard decided to add Elves, and Zul’Jin had to go, and they wrote Amani as super evil. Did you know that they burned Darkspear Village in Middle of Eversong Woods?
Elves were doing constant raids on forest trolls to cull their population. They were stealing their possesions, starting with enchants, ending on magical mallets, poisoned their food. Took their land bit by bit. And you say that Zul’Jin is the problem, that he is just hateful. But his side is never considered.
Trolls do know about magic, Their enchants were so good that elves couldn’t replicate them and had to steal it. Zul’Jin also knew about Sunwell, he knew that the moment they were cut from it that would be game over for them. And indeed it was in WC3 where they had to migrate to Outland. But then TBC happened, and massive retcon was done with likewise massive plot armor.
Spy or no spy, he ended there. Same with Vash.
No, the most fits him Troll afterlife. I was hoping that in The Other Side, we would meet him, Sen’Jin and Rastakhan, where we team up to defend it from Jailer’s attack. But instead we had gnomes, broker, and Hakkar again for some reason. It baffles me on why doing troll afterlife and now show actual trolls who live there.
Hopefully he will get better treatment from now on.
Yeah, and Gul’dan wasn’t reporting everything to the Demons, and the Demons weren’t watching and waiting, let alone having the Orcs go and take the elven Runestones to create those Altars of Storm or Temples of the Damned, to create Death Knights or summon demons.
Where did I say this existed? Blizzard lore specifically for the original ZA stated he used dark powers to raise an army. If I’m not mistaken, that was originally zombie trolls. So most likely necromancy.
Edit: here’s what actually happened with the Loa and what Malacrass was doing. His abilities were spirit bolts, necromantic type magic and some akin to the Death Loa that had captured Bwonsamdi.
You completely omitted that in order to get there, elves had to “slaughter every troll on the way”. If they met trolls that were clearly unhapy to see tresspassers, then by any means, that land was occupied. But elves didn’t care because the laylines were the best there.
Not according to the lore.
“The trolls eventually retreated into their temple city of Zul’Aman. They decided it was safer to ambush elven convoys that strayed beyond the magic barrier than to launch a full assault on Quel’Thalas. An elite group of rangers soon arose to combat this threat.”
No, the Zandalari knew about magic. The Amani, not so much. The Amani were superstitious, and afraid of the Runestones. The Zandalari, such as Zanza, provided the Amani with enchantments for their weapons, which confounded the elves.
“When the high elves went to war with the Amani trolls, the elves could not understand how the trolls’ weapon enchantments were more powerful than their own. The elves then stole ancient knowledge from troll spellcasters, including the famous Zanza, and used stolen idols to craft their own versions of the troll enchantments.[18]”
Vashj wound up there from the Arbiter. Again, I thought Kel’thuzad was placed there by the Jailer, after the Arbiter sent him to the Maw.
If we’re honest, the Shadowlands was horribly handled all around. We saw four covenants, but there’s infinite afterlives. We should have at least seen two more that would have meshed much better with the Horde and Alliance on a cultural level. I could easily see Tauren and Orcs sharing an afterlife in vast plains or something, for example, a chance to see Cairne again, maybe Durotan, Ogrim, Grom, etc…
He’s still in Revendreth, just hiding. Don’t know if he can even escape. Even if he did… what then?
You mean the Trolls attacked them.
The point remains, Quel’Thalas was founded upon ruins, abandoned, not in use by the Amani, and the Amani continued to attack the elves until they created the Ban’dinoriel, after which the cowards decided to just attack any elven convoys outside of the shield with raiding parties.
They’re wild gods.
Again harming one isn’t a ticket straight to hell.
We’ve killed plenty of Loa. HAKKAR, REZAN, the Snake Loa who’s name escapes me in BFA
No one cares. Look at the big picture. Bat crazy troll couldn’t let it go. He was obsessed with murdering all elves. And then extended that to literally everyone everywhere.
Dude needed some major reprogramming.
Not really for you to decide.
Right…you talking of how Zul’jin went crazy to save his people like Tyrande did only he got sent to Revendreth where as Tyrande was forgiven for everything and not even suffering any side effects of the power that should of killed her? Yeah…just shows Shadowlands was a bad expansion
That doesn’t negate what I was saying, at all. Trolls were fighting back, and elves weer doing hunting parties and once in a while doing hunting parties to make sure that troll populationn does’t increase.
Voodoo is also magic, and they created magically enhaced weapons, that elves had to also steal during their questing experience.
Anyway We can argue all day in the end. I’m not saying Forest trolls are docile goodie-two-shoes, They’re not, they can be cruel, vinndictive, stubborn and so on. They were always highly territorial. But they’re still THE natives, that were robbed of their home. They didn’t go after elves, the elves went to them and set their home on their land.
And killed everyone on their path.
And Trolls have their own afterlife, They go there regardless of who they were in their life, but the mightier and the more accomplished soul the more Bwonsamdi wants in his collection.
And this is what OP meant. Imagine if Horde did the same and actually stick to their original plan. Kill everyone on the way, from Ashevanle to Darkshore. Capture Teldrassil and claim as your your new home, put stations everywhere so elves can’t come close nuke everyone that tries and then call yourself innocent.
Yes, I can agree it was done poorly. They thought that lumping few NPCs there and there would make it work. But in the end it was hard to stay invested. You’d imagine that shadowlands would be spearheaded by Horde, since they have the most connections to this realm, their shamans were often meant to communicate with the dead, but the one who got spotlight were the usual pet Characters.
I can think of many ways. He could return to The Other Side. He can ascend to Loahood, he can be brougth back to life in same fashion that Mandokir was.
Trolls attacked them because they tresspassed their lands. It was their lands, they were invaders. Trolls recognised in them Highborne that already took majority of their lands.
And ruins or not ruins that place beloned to them.
These moss-skinned trolls could regenerate lost limbs and heal grievous physical injuries, but they proved to be a barbaric, evil race. The Amani empire stretched across most of northern Lordaeron, and the trolls fought hard to keep unwanted strangers from their borders. The elves developed a deep loathing for the vicious trolls and killed them on sight whenever they were encountered.
After many long years, the high elves finally found a land which was reminiscent of Kalimdor. Deep within the northern forests of the continent, they founded the kingdom of Quel’Thalas and vowed to create a mighty empire which would dwarf that of their Kaldorei cousins. Unfortunately they soon learned that Quel’Thalas was founded upon an ancient troll city that the trolls still held to be sacred. Almost immediately, the trolls began to attack the elven settlements en masse.
The stubborn elves, unwilling to give up their new land, utilized the magics which they had gleaned from the Well of Eternity and kept the savage trolls at bay. Under Dath’Remar’s leadership, they were able to defeat the Amani warbands that outnumbered them ten to one. Some elves, wary of the Kaldorei’s ancient warnings, felt that their use of magic might possibly draw the attention of the banished Burning Legion.
Thats many ways to show that you’re not welcome, and this land is occupied.
But elves being elves didn’t care, but I am just amazed with their logic. If they hate trolls so much, why would they settle in the very heart of their land and essentially having very angry neighbours for centuries?
If they hated weather so much additionally, because it was cold and such, why they pressed north? Why not go south?
And their solution was to kill off trolls, put wards and change the weather permanently. And then act offended that trolls keep on trying to get them out.
Actually, killing a Loa is considered a highest crime among trolls. Hakkar had to be dealt with because he unleashed blood plague. Rezan was killed by a traitor and that gave dire consequences for Zandalar.
But Amani Loas were not sacrificed/killed.
They’re fine and they already have new champions that assume their visage.
He is still venerated by other trolls. He is a hero in their eyes, he has a statue in Zandalar. He should’ve ascend to become Loa, or be with his people on the Other Side.
Just becuase you hate him, doesn’t mean that other trolls hate him too. And if troll is legendary champion then he would ascend.
you ever wonder what part of the shadowlands garithos got sent to? i wonder why thrall didn’t bother to look up blackmoore either
Not to mention that in the book Sylvanas we learn that the Amani use huge slabs of stone covered in ritual masks as border markers to serve as warnings and show that from here on it’s troll land. Sylvanas also thinks briefly she’s passed them more times than she can count, so they clearly didn’t respect it either way. Also, the book shows that they went out of their way to hunt trolls and took ears as trophies.
It’s also very sad that many people on these forums use literally the same arguments for the taking of indigenous land like the trolls, as people have used irl that we now consider as vile and horrid mistakes of the past.
Also just because something are ruins does not mean they’re not used for some other purpose, it’s said that they’re sacred to the trolls so it is not unlikely that they were used in some religious capacity.
Not to mention that a society like the trolls requires hunting grounds, and hunting is a large part of troll culture. To claim that the trolls didn’t use the land because it wasn’t cultivated/built on is literally something that people to this day say to take land that natives use to practice their ways.
Yes, I remember doing that quest back in the day. Taking ears, poisoning the food, stealing mallet, culling their population so they don’t grow in numbers… all the usual stuff.
Yes, Imagine razing Acropolis or Colisseum “because it’s ruins, nobody is using that anyway. Let’s put modern hotel in that place, the location is great!”.
Funny enough was doing recently quests in Darkshore becuase I wanted to refresh my memory, and when Shatterspear did exact same thing “it’s just a ruins, we can use that for something or perhaps find something fancy” the nelves wanted to kill them for that, ordered to kill laborers and took highbourne artifacts so they don’t fall in enemy hands.
And for killing few sentinels Nelves went overkill and rounded them up in their vale with purpose to destroy every building and kill any remaining troll.
You could argue that these are two different breeds of elves, but I see the smilarity, and quite a delightful irony. But I guess it’s more on developers to change framework depending on whom it affects. And to be fair, I’d wish These Trolls would remian a mystery than another canon fodder.
Honestly, if I could have, I’d have just sided with Zul’jin. They did him and his people dirty.
Shadowlands made death meaningless… kinda a bad decision (danuser showin those D- writing chops!) that’s my favorite piece of straw atop the buried, broken-backed, dead camel that was shadowlands.