I don’t know buddy, i went past 3slot memey persona and got some real discussion done. I call that a win.
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Alliance of Lordaeron. Unlike Blackmoore though, Rehgar did not start the Slave Trade in Kalimdor, In fact, it was already well established by the time he got there. With peons being physically abused and forced to work, and criminals and POWS being sold by in-house Horde institutions. With slave gladiatorial training happening in the Horde’s capital city.
Not only was Blackmoore’s practices not widely accepted or adopted, but it was part something completely separate from the current Alliance.
And once again:
And yet the Horde consistently goes to war over a lack of resources… kind of a jerk move.
We have no reason to think it’s changed.
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I’m not defending the Hordes’ stupidity.
Yet no reason to think its’ being continued either…oh wait…forget I said that.
And that’s what im saying, you already do hold the Horde accountable for its’ previous incarnation. That’s why more than half the current leaders on the Alliance hate the Horde in the first place. Just like how the Horde holds Alliance accountable for its’ previous incarnation.(even if the Horde deserved it)
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That’s not how things work though, the precedent has been set. So suggesting that the Horde has stopped the practice is a claim that needs to be backed with evidence, and the lack of evidence of the practice is not evidence of it’s discontinuation. So we have to assume the practice continues until Blizzard says otherwise.
I may, but not in this situation. I am blaming the Horde for something they did under Thrall’s leadership, and what they continue to do now.
What are you, some kind of filthy NEUTRAL?
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That’s no more different than enforced prison labor which is fairly common in OUR culture as well. Slavery as an instittuion is alive and well even in this country. We just use different names for it.
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Yeah, but that is a double edged sword and can work both ways. If they’re not shown doing it, then they’re not doing it. If they are shown doing it, then they’re doing it.
There’s nothing to prove that the Horde stopped practicing slavery, but at the same time there’s nothing to prove that they continue to practice slavery either.
No, that’s not the case. The precedent has been set. Therefore, the Horde is still actively practicing slavery, and have been since Thrall’s reign. We KNOW that it was common practice in Cata and earlier, and we have no reason to believe it has ever stopped. You can’t say “But we have no reason to believe it continued” because that is a claim of fact, making the assertion that “The Horde current practiced slavery” is untrue. “The Horde Currently practices slavery” is the Null, and the null is assumed to be true until evidence proves otherwise.
I didn’t like either plot.
Regardless, we can discuss it but I am pointing out it ends up being a double edged sword.
Honestly I don’t think even blizzard has put a solid amount of thought into how slavery works with the Horde. I think when they decided to do Varian’s story back in those comics they thought it would be cool to have him as a gladiator slave lost in the savage horde lands. They probably didn’t even consider how little sense that made in an organisation lead by a guy who was a former slave himself and hated the practice.
Hell in the comics Thrall even says as much to Varian when they meet though neither actually explain why then Thrall not only has slavery in Horde territories but has an advisor who was a slave owner only shortly before.
I put slavery in the Horde firmly into the ‘Blizzard hasn’t really gotten around to figuring it out themselves’ basket.
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right next to “is Free Will the cornerstone of forsaken society?”, “Does Jaina want war or peace with the horde?”, and “what even IS honor?”
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But you literally have no way to prove it. By that Logic i can say the Alliance has been practicing slavery since the time of Terenas Menethil since there has never been any official evidence that they stopped, just that the internment camps were destroyed.
But none to believe it was continued post-cata either. See where this is going yet?
I didn’t, I’m just saying that there’s no evidence of them continuing to practice slavery either.
But that’s not the null, thats just you claiming that the Horde continues to practice slavery. There may not be anything disproving your statement, but nothing supporting it either.
I have proved it. We see it first hand. We know Rehgar bought Valeera from a Horde Prison, we know Spiketooth has an Alliance POW as a slave. We know they train in The Ring of Valor. We have seen Horde NPCs with the title of Slave Driver. It has been proven, and that precedent has been set.
No such thing has happened for the Alliance, unless you include the Dark Irons. We know that the internment camps were not really slave encampments, except for Blackmoore’s. There are no Alliance Slaves or slave drivers that we can see. We know the Crimson Ring is not present anywhere in Alliance territory. All the evidence that sets the precedent of Horde practice of Slavery is not present for the Alliance. So it has been proven that the Horde practices slavery, where no evidence of Alliance slavery exists. Therefore, YOU have to prove that at some point the practice has stopped, which you have no evidence for. I don’t have to prove Slavery exists, you have to prove that it doesn’t, because Horde Slavery is already the accepted null.
See above. The null has already been established and accepted. Therefore, there needs to be evidence to prove that it has discontinued. The Lack of Evidence of slavery is not enough anymore.
Yes it is the Null.
We KNOW slavery was common practice between Vanilla-Cata. That is a fact, and we are forced to accept that as the reality. That is the Null.
Horde Slavery is something that has not been revisited since. (At least to my knowledge, if I did some digging I could probably find something).
There is no evidence to suggest that the practice has stopped.
Therefore we are forced to continue to accept the Null.
You can’t invent a convenient definition to suit your argument just because the existing definition refutes it. That’s not how discussion works. Slavery is an economic practice. It involves treating living, thinking, sentient individuals as property, bought and sold for profit.
Again, your definition of slavery applies to everything from Community Service and Detention to Indentured Servitude and Unfree Labor.
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This part isn’t a necessary aspect of slavery, though. It can be slavery without having people necessarily being bought and/or sold.
If a family of slaves has children, the children aren’t actually slaves until they’re sold for the first time.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery
“Slavery is any system in which principles of property law are applied to people, allowing individuals to own, buy and sell other individuals, as a de jure form of property.”
Your Wikipedia article is not matching up with most of these dictionaries. They just have to be owned as property by a person. Again, not necessarily bought and sold.
The point of treating people as property is that, much like property, they can be bought and sold. Just because a slave might be born into slavery and never be sold, doesn’t really change the fact that there is an economic factor to the practice of slavery.
When one refers to forced labor that does not treat an individual as property to be bought and sold, the terms that apply are, “Indentured Servitude,” or, “Unfree Labor.”
Slavery is literally about the individual being property.
The point is that the person owns them and can do largely as they wish. It doesn’t necessitate buying and selling. Often it involves it, but no, not a vital part. Property just means something you own. That it belongs to you.
It doesn’t need to. Your claim doesn’t change the actual definition of slavery, which is just owning people as property, full stop.
Yep. And that doesn’t necessarily include buying and selling. You can still have property, still own something, whether or not you are buying and selling it.
Did you know if you look up “unfree labor” on Wikipedia, at the very top it has a banner that says “part of a series on slavery”.
Oh and indentured servitude on Wikipedia mentions that it’s banned under the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as a form of slavery.