Refuting the common arguments against Dual Spec

[Kigelz-ashkandi]

I need on stuff just to DE it

[Fuzzydice-earthfury]

I think you are exaggerating the affect of dual spec being in the game.

[Kigelz-ashkandi]

People logging out because they don’t want to pay the 50g is a definite problem with the game. It 100% breaks the game because less people are playing the game.

[Fuzzydice-earthfury]

@Riger-arugal

It’s probably a bridge too far for me personally though.

This is how I feel about not having dual spec at this point. It’s a really good quality of life feature. Making it cost an insane amount of gold will just push it to have a token in the store, which I will buy to save my gold.

[Fuzzydice-earthfury]

I raid log because I am not going to pay to respec twice a week to do other things.

[Feywaif-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Kerg-bloodsail-buccaneers

Because we have 14 years of historical record that shows what is likely to happen if we start down that path. So the hypotheticals are not at all extreme,

The evidence at most shows that adding dual spec today might produce retail in 14 years. Not in the next 2 years. Any hypothetical that says other wise is extreme.

[Maximumfat-gurubashi]

Face it: Dual spec is trash and if you want a casual baby game retail exists. Bye now, launch retail and gtfo.

[Riger-arugal]

@Fuzzydice-earthfury

I raid log because I am not going to pay to respec twice a week to do other things.

I raid log too ATM but that’s more a function of the slow release cycle. I think making spec switching cheaper removes a reason to grind gold and thus gives us less rather than more to do. Gold grinding for respects is pretty much the only thing left that I do haha and battlegrounds.

@Fuzzydice-earthfury

This is how I feel about not having dual spec at this point.

This is where we really stand in this discussion. It’s your preference (which is valid) vs my preference (which is also valid). Neither on its own is decidable - there’s no way to falsify either position. No “win condition” for the argument.

So, basically your preference is noted and I disagree. There’s not really much else to discuss there.

The reason I’ve asked for scope on what changes are acceptable and what aren’t is not as some debating trick, but rather, in defining a scope you define a “win” and a “loss” condition - there’s a resolvable argument and something resolvable to discuss.

I’ve given you my “loss” condition by giving you my scope - the conditions that define what changes are acceptable and what changes are not. I’ve asked for the same from the pro dual spec camp so that we have something resolvable we can actually discuss rather than repeated unarguable assertions of preference.

[Kumasama-westfall]

@Thereza-netherwind

Just wait until WoTLK

Wasn’t that already released?

What year is it?

[Rodiart-loatheb]

@Profits-mankrik

Neither was the Tinnitus debuff. Or paladins having both factions’ seals. Or having only Kara/Gruul/Mag available at launch. Or Horde vs Horde battlegrounds. etc. etc.

The “#nochanges” train left the station a long time ago, and turned out to be a disaster. Blizzard openly stated that they are going with “#somechanges” for TBC. Anyone still advocating for “muh nochanges” is delusional.

@Profits-mankrik

transmog, dungeon finder, LFR, pet battles, and all the rest of the crap

Slippery slope fallacy.

What?

…

[Kerg-bloodsail-buccaneers]

@Feywaif-bloodsail-buccaneers

The evidence at most shows that adding dual spec today might produce retail in 14 years. Not in the next 2 years. Any hypothetical that says other wise is extreme.

The changes that resulted in retail didn’t happen overnight. It was incremental changes year after year, starting with Wrath, which took some big steps in that direction.

I not only don’t want TBC to be made to be more like retail. I also don’t want it to be made to be more like Wrath, which is an inferior game, IMO.

And someone will probably answer with… but subs peaked during Wrath. Yes, they did. Doesn’t matter. Wrath wasn’t as good as TBC, IMO, and it was the beginning of WoW’s decline.

[Littlerascal-area-52]

There should not be a need to justify Dual-Spec anymore. Now that HvH BGs is officially in the game, the precedent is set.

The same justification can be used for Dual-Spec. Why should players have to wait an hour or more for a tank. Everyone should have the right to play the game without waiting. Dual Spec reduces that wait by allowing people to switch to Tank or Heals as needed.

And not one player that supported HvH BGs can disagree, it is the same justification they used to get HvH BGs.

[Ziryus-pagle]

@Kerg-bloodsail-buccaneers

@Feywaif-bloodsail-buccaneers

The evidence at most shows that adding dual spec today might produce retail in 14 years. Not in the next 2 years. Any hypothetical that says other wise is extreme.

The changes that resulted in retail didn’t happen overnight. It was incremental changes year after year, starting with Wrath, which took some big steps in that direction.

I not only don’t want TBC to be made to be more like retail. I also don’t want it to be made to be more like Wrath, which is an inferior game, IMO.

And someone will probably answer with… but subs peaked during Wrath. Yes, they did. Doesn’t matter. Wrath wasn’t as good as TBC, IMO, and it was the beginning of WoW’s decline.

Actually those changes started in TBC, or for that matter in vanilla when blizzard very intentionally made WoW an easy mode RPG. Which is part of why I find it so silly when people complain about dual spec making things too easy.

[Riger-arugal]

@Kerg-bloodsail-buccaneers

but subs peaked during Wrath.

They also plateaued during wrath. Wow had near exponential growth through classic and TBC but not wrath.

[Riger-arugal]

@Littlerascal-area-52

There should not be a need to justify Dual-Spec anymore.

This is the point - there is always a need to justify a change, case by case.

There’s never a point where you can argue that a change has happened therefore whatever else I want changed must happen.

This is why people are arguing that you’re having your cake and eating it too, you’re using slippery slope as justification but then saying we’re making the slippery slope fallacy when we counter that.

One change does not without independent cause necessitate another. Each change needs to be justified case by case else all changes are justified.

[Cruortus-spirestone (Cruortus)]

I keep seeing this. I would objectively tank more if dual spec existed. Currently I have set time blocks in the week where I sit as prot vs ret to save on respec fees. I generally run out of things to do and pug things because I enjoy it. So will it 100% “fix” the tank shortage? No, but it will make it better.

[Ziryus-pagle]

Yeah this is something they don’t seem to understand. Will I tank/heal every single group I’m in or for every random group looking for one? No of course not, but I can guarantee I’ll do so more often than the never I do without dual spec.

[Sotirios-pagle]

tltr, wow people have time to right long posts.

[Thereza-netherwind]

I’m glad there few (very very few) people that are big fans of dual spec, it will be a key feature of the next expansion of WoW classic: Wrath of the Lich King Classic.

[Solotov-benediction]

@Mispeled-netherwind

You’re looking at it the wrong way. The problem isn’t the lack of dual spec, the problems are the lack of tanks in dungeons,

Yeah youre right its a good thing retail removed the need for respecs so that theres no tank shortage…oh wait

@Sunderpantz-incendius

Every expansion has proven this false. You will still say lack of tanks and healers.

This. The lack of these two roles is simple. PEOPLE DONT LIKE TANKING AND HEALING.

@Profits-mankrik

“your post is just an opinion because I say so”

That’s not how it works, sweetie.

For your opinion to be a fact you have to provide data. Which you did not. So its an opinion.

@Profits-mankrik

I’d say people choosing to log out and not play the game because respec costs are prohibitively high, is an obvious problem that breaks that game.

50g CAP on respecs. Thats literally 2 daily quests which probably takes about an hour if you group with guildies or friends or just competent players.
Or farming your profession for an hour.
If youre double respeccing thats 2 hours. OH MAN

@Profits-mankrik

I’d say healers/tanks struggling to farm things because they’re not a DPS spec is an obvious problem that breaks the game.

Show me where theyre struggling. Most tanks are mining and that usually doesnt require you to kill mobs. You can also offer to do heroics with the tons of people looking for tanks and healers in dungeons. Heroics net a decent amount of money and due to the shortage you can basically just ask for a reasonable amount of gold (will tank for 25g) and do 5 heroics a day and make 125g in just tanking costs not including drops.

@Profits-mankrik

I’d say people having to spam “LF1M TANK” for 45+ minutes is an obvious problem that breaks the game.

People looking for a tank or healer for 45+ min would be willing to split a 25g or even a 50g tanking service cost so they can play the content.

@Profits-mankrik

I’d say people having to blow gold respeccing all the time just to properly PvP is an obvious problem that breaks the game.

Healers are VERY needed in pvp so they dont really have to respec

I see plenty of useful tanks in pvp. its not NEEDED to pvp unless youre talking about arenas.

@Profits-mankrik

And we saw how “muh nochanges” turned out in classic-vanilla. It was a disaster.

The only thing that made classic vanilla a “disaster” is min/max culture. but thats just my opinion (See its easy to admit that)

@Razergore-pagle

Dual spec does not fix tank shortage.

That is one of the biggest myths ever. It does help a raiding guild more easily have off tanks, but those tanks are not out there helping pugs. Blizzard homogenized gear, allowed free respecs, and made 5 mans a gear path and none of that really helped the tank shortage for pugs.

The skewed requirement for tanks from 5 mans to raids and it being the least popular role is what keeps tanks out.

The main problem with dual spec is that almost all modern features can be argued as good changes, but then we look back on what it turned retail into. You can argue for it and it certainly brings a ton of convenience, but aversion to the systems that created retail wow is a fair argument against them.

Ladies and gentlemen…a man of culture