Reclaiming Gilneas!

I rewrote too much in the past reply, so I’m making it a whole new one.

Uhhh… No, I did not say that Kat. I very clearly stated the biggest problem was that each of these things happened one after another. I never gave weight to which one I felt was the biggest problem, because if I did, I’d’ve very clearly stated that to be Sylvanas’s war machine, followed by the Cataclysm itself.

Even a non-isolated Gilneas, with no worgen curse, would have been unlikely to stand against Sylvanas’s campaign. Nothing else did, not even the Alliance itself at Andorhal (I spelled that wrong). It was a potent enough mobile army that it only stopped at Arathi for… Reasons? And on the other end of the campaign because presumably Sylvanas didn’t want to go head-to-head with the Argent Crusade.

Especially following the destruction of the Cataclysm and how quickly Sylvanas moved on everything around her, I don’t expect Gilneas to have gone differently enough to change the end result.

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Yes, exactly. The night elves show up, uninvited, and can still rally a sizeable enough fleet to help evacuate the remaining Gilneans. Had they been approached months, or even years, ago when the worgen threat would’ve been more manageable or before the Forsaken presence was even an issue that could have all been solved. Or at the very least greatly mitigated.

But Genn figured his nation could stand alone. He was wrong, and an awful lot of his people including his son paid the price for that.

I mean, the thing is the night elves were there before the Cataclysm, and before Sylvanas.

Unless you’re arguing the Alliance as a whole would have withdrawn the non-worgen pre-Cataclysm, then being a part of the Alliance is irrelevant because already-there night elves could do only that. Unless Stormwind’s leaving a fleet behind in Gilneas, and that fleet survived the Cataclysm, and that fleet isn’t needed elsewhere, and Sylvanas doesn’t go after the fleet, then they wouldn’t have made much of a difference. A difference, sure, but not a big one. Sylvanas was moving her forces quick. It was a lightning strike. A blitz, with all the negative connotations implied by using that word.

If you are talking about evacuating the un-cursed Gilneans… Then you’re just leaving the city to the worgen, until Sylvanas attacks them and claims Gilneas. Same end result. But now the Gilnean guerilla tactics that harried Sylvanas in Hillsbrad never happen.

We’re still left with an empty Gilneas, that is probably plagued less? Which either means the forsaken just move all the way in, or they don’t and the Scarlets (or whichever of the many, many groups to have short-term claimed the ruins) settles in to more territory.

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A small handful of them are. The fleet and army that comes for the evacuation isn’t in Gilneas until about the time of that evacuation when it’s too late for them to do much of anything else. Imagine if that fleet, or a Stormwind or Ironforge fleet, had arrived 6-12 months earlier. When the Gilneans still held their capital, when they still had an actual army, when the worgen threat is starting to get serious but well before Deathwing is going to make his appearance to shatter the wall and let the undead in. That’s enough time for these new troops to dig in and defend. Enough time for magical and alchemical specialists to work out a cure, or just introduce the ones that they end up using much earlier. The worgen threat is then much more easily contained. Then even if the wall falls the Forsaken won’t find a half-dead Gilneas ripe for the picking but a standing, strong nation.

There’s some copium in this thread, and more criticisms (including mine). Not many middle-of-the-road responses like yours.

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Everyone always seems to forget that if wasn’t for the Greymane wall there wouldn’t be a Gilneas.

The wall literally saved them from a zombie apocalypse. Without it the scourge would have just gobbled it up along with Lordaeron.

As for the civil war, the Northgate Rebellion only happened cause Crowley was selfish and didn’t like the ideas of his fief/lands being on the outside of the wall. If his lands were elsewhere he probably never would have instigated the rebellion.

But even then the rebellion was decades ago. Only reason Gilneas really got their butt kicked when the forsaken first marched in was the worgen curse as most of the population were mindless ferals then.

But the fact of the matter was the Wall is the only reason Gilneans as a people even exist still

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Probably. But it would make for an interesting “What If?” if nothing else. What if the Alliance had actually held together and the Scourge were countered by Lordaeron, and Quel’thalas, and Gilneas, and Dalaran, if actually got off the butts early, and etc… as one rather then each taking them on piecemeal?

You are correct, and I’d like to also take a moment to point out a timeline error I’ve made thus far.

Sylvanas’s blitz had already started before the Cataclsym; she had forces trying to take out the wall before it fell due to Deathwing.

So, just to keep it all clear: Rebellion, worgen gets summoned, worgen start spreading but it’s kept under wraps, underwraps stops working, some night elves arrive, curse gets under control, Sylvanas is at the gates, Deathwing Happens, Sylvanas runs roughshod over Gilneas right after.

With all that said.

But… Why would they?

By the time Sylvanas is even considering making her move, the worgen situation is largely under control, thanks to the night elves. Some specialists might be brought in to help develop a full cure (which clearly wouldn’t have worked, because there is still no full cure in the post-Cata world, which has gone on for over a decade in-universe), but the threat itself is gone.

Then Sylvanas blitzes.

We know she’s moving quick; the entire narrative shows this is a rolling machine of death that isn’t pausing, because it doesn’t need to. While the Gilneans would now be able to call for reinforcements from Stormwind and Ironforge, they don’t have a whole wall to stop Sylvanas from just… Going straight on into their lands. There’s no pause at all.

Then Deathwing does a Deathwing.

The forsaken army was right outside when Deathwing Deathwinged, and were relatively unphased. Presumably being within the actual Gilnean kingdom and actively fighting would have hindered them, but it doesn’t seem likely by any meaningful measure; if it didn’t outside, why would it inside?

Sure, some extra ships would have arrived to evacuate more Gilneans, but would there have been time to muster up enough forces to actually push Sylvanas back? Wouldn’t there have been even less time, given there isn’t even a pause in her strike?

I don’t see this affecting the outcome in a meaningful way.

However…

If Gilneas’ isolation is supposed to be depicted as horrible, then what would have stopped the Scourge? We know because Bradenwood exists that the Scourge threatened right up to Pyrewood, just outside the gates. We know the Scourge actually made it to the gates and were stopped. What would have spared a non-isolated Gilneas from that?

The wall was only built because Genn wanted to isolate his people. If that choice is so bad, how is the alternative scenario better? How is isolation the cause of his problems if the alternative is Gilnean Forsaken at best and Gilnean Scourge at worst?

No, this is why I don’t by the idea that the Gilneas storyline is about how isolation was the problem. Isolation avoided the worst outcome. Isolation worsened the alternative, the events that did happen. But the fall of Gilneas had little to do with isolation.

The Fall of Gilneas happened because nobody expected Sylvanas to go full Banshee Queen, or to go as hard at it as she did.

The lesson of Gilneas isn’t about isolation.

The lesson of Gilneas is to not give up.

Not when the wolves are at your door, not when the world shatters, and not when the zombie apocalypse you hoped to avoid finally walks down your street. That’s why the continuation of the Gilneas story (which Alliance players don’t even get to play through, big brain move there) has Gilneans still fighting.

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I think Liam’s speech at the Battle for Gilneas City, with it’s obvious reference to Churchill’s famous speech during WW2, encapsulates the message and meaning behind the worgen leveling story.

Prince Liam Greymane yells: The Forsaken think we’re weak. A broken people. They think we’ll roll over like a scared dog.
Prince Liam Greymane yells: How wrong they are. We will fight them in the fields until the last trench collapes and the last cannon is silenced.
Prince Liam Greymane yells: We will fight them on the streets until the last shot is fired. And when there’s no more ammunition, we’ll crush their skulls with the stones that pave our city.
Prince Liam Greymane yells: We will fight them in the alleys, until our knuckles are skinned and bloody and our rapiers lay in the ground shattered.
Prince Liam Greymane yells: And if we find ourselves surrounded and disarmed… wounded and without hope… we will lift our heads in defiance and spit in their faces.
Prince Liam Greymane yells: But we will… NEVER SURRENDER!!!

No matter how bad things get, no matter the odds, never ever surrender, never give up.

And I mean the Gilneans did technically win and force Sylvanas and the horde to retreat at the end of the leveling experience but at that point it was just a momentary victory cause they couldn’t stay due to the plague and had to leave.

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Off topic though, in another universe, in another time, man Liam would have been an amazing king. Young, courageous, strong, well loved by the people even the commoners. A natural born leader

Oh what could have been

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Because Gilneas asked? Because they’re a powerful nation that would make for a good addition to the Alliance? Because it’s a stronghold state in northern Lordaeron that can be used as a launching off point for future invasions to help deal with the undead etc…

Granted Cata was when Varian was back and in his full Anime Rage arch. But it’s hardly an impossible sell and, as we saw then and latter, the other Alliance powers can still make their own choices when it comes to their own forces. It’s not the reign of the High King yet.

No it is not even close. They have a “cure” thanks to the ritual but that still requires individual worgen to participate in it. Which means tracking down and capturing as many worgen as they can, presumably giving them the potion to get them under control, and then repeating the ritual. By the time the forsaken are marching into Gilneas it’s still mostly wild territory with the ferals very much “in control”. Even the Forsaken invasion did change it that much, per the questline for the legendary Rogue daggers later in Cata* But if that entire series of events could have been avoid? The worgen made fully under control before the wall fell? That’s now a very different proposition for the Forsaken.

Insofar as there’s any lesson from it to take away? Yeah, yeah that’s definitely in there. Not even in the sub-text but the literal text. From the questlines there, from Genn’s short story that Blizzard released in Cata, hell even for Genn’s own character development. Seeing him go from an arrogant old man who believed himself, his people, and his nation to be superior and that they shouldn’t let themselves get tied down in the trouble of “lesser people” to a genuine Alliance flag-waver.

I wouldn’t say it’s the only theme or idea present in that story but it is 100% present. And was in Quel’thalas, Surmar, Pandaria, heck even the gnomes were used to express this idea. Gnomeregan probably wouldn’t have ended up an irradiated hellscape if they had just asked for help. It’s a trope Blizzard returns to often because it fits very well with a game where the main focus, in theory anyway, are a pair of multi-racial alliances that are always eager to find new members.

*Though the status of Gilneas itself fluctuates a lot even in Cata. From the Gilneans owning it, Forsaken occupying it, the BG, then the Rogue stuff etc… etc… It’s a bit of mess.

When I ask why would a whole fleet be sent, I mean; why would Gilneas think they needed a whole fleet before the violence has even happened. 6-12 months before the fall of Gilneas, Sylvanas hadn’t begun her march. We’re going from “Stormwind ect all would have helped” to “Gilneas would have pre-emptively requested a whole fleet during a time when a fleet isn’t needed, just because”.

Prior to the Shattering, rather than Anime Rage Varian (love that btw), he was trying to broker a peace treaty with the Horde. It was… Obviously not going very well at all, and he sure didn’t seem all too into the process, but he was certainly making an effort.

Why would he then turn around and also park a naval fleet next door to the forsaken?

Mm, true. But to date, the only method for control that has been found to work has been the night elf ritual. Even the attempts in Duskwood haven’t yeilded any results as of the worgen heritage quest. There is zero reason to think some Alliance alchemists would have succeeded then when they haven’t succeeded now.

At best, you just have alchemists also present.

Only when the narrative ignores itself.

Yes, Genn will say isolation was bad. But what was his alternative when the Scourge were at the front gates had there been no gates to hold them back? Or in some hypothetical scenario where the Scourge army saw a wide open path into Gilneas and decided it’s gotta be a trick and avoided it… What would have then stopped the forsaken from invading? Hell, from invading even earlier? Like, WCIII early? They were present all around Gilneas, and clearly not above taking over land other people owned even back then.

Blizzard can say “isolation is bad” but they can’t do a single thing to show it, and have to ignore the rest of the story around that isolation just to make the message work.

Though I hope they changed their stance regarding isolation back in 2020!! Isolation can be good sometimes!!

So send a smaller force to assist with the worgen and then Gilneas can request more reinforcements once the Forsaken are pounding on the wall. If that would even be needed; by the time we get to Vanilla there aren’t even guards on the wall anymore, it had to be abandoned as the humans were forced to pull back. With a Gilnean army unmangled by the worgen and such a strong defensive position? Maybe they could have held off the Forsaken on their own. That army might not even have been there when Deathwing deathwing’d all over the planet.

Maybe. But generally pooling resources gets things done faster. A partial cure was found by one guy traveling with the uncursed Gilneans. With more researchers and proper facilities it’s possible it could have been found sooner.

Baring in mind that the wall wasn’t made to keep the Scourge out; it was built after the Second War as Genn’s big, expensive middle finger to the rest of the Alliance; to keep them out of Gilnean affairs, not to hold back an undead tide. And even if we want to credit that with saving Gilneas once? Genn knew, well before everything fell apart, that it wasn’t working with the worgen. They were getting through the wall, either clambering over it or just infecting guards that came and went from it at that time.

So, okay, you could make the argument that it worked once. By accident. Against an enemy that wasn’t really trying to get to them; by the time northern EK had largely fallen Archimonde was on Azeroth and had taken control of the Scourge to lead them to Kalimdor to fight the night elves. Then after FT the Scourge were largely inactive while Arthas figured out how to Lich King. But this isolationist policy fails miserably against the very next thing it has to try and keep out.

But again, by the time the forsaken are walking through the open pass where no gates were built because we’re discussing a non-isolationist Gilneas, there isn’t time to get much reinforcement. Again, the key to Sylvanas’s strike is how quickly it moved. Nobody had time to properly defend against it because it just rolled straight on through. This is how it’s canonically presented.

There’s also the problem that’s been unaddressed; worgen spreading much further beyond the Greymane… Pass? The Greymane Pass, that’s my name for where the wall now-wouldn’t be.

The worgen issue stayed mostly isolated because a giant wall also stopped that spread. No wall, and with the goal of the guy in charge of the worgen being to spread his curse, now the curse could move beyond Gilneas into neighboring Hillsbrad.

Sure, Gilneas’s army isn’t getting hammered by worgen within its boundaries, but those worgen are now hammering nearby communities. Presumably, Gilnean and Stormwindian forces have to be moved to help contain those areas as well. We’re likely looking at a net balance here, because they need troops to cover more ground, and troops in strength to also keep themselves safe from potential forsaken attacks even pre-Cataclysm.

Or I guess Genn could still be a jerk here too and just not help. Then the worgen curse can spread with little to stall it. That’s a whole other kettle I’m not about to touch.

I’m not sure who this refers to, or when it occurred. Unless it was shortly after Cataclysm, I don’t see how it affects matters at all. The night elf cure worked. We know it was around about a year from the worgen situation escalating to the need for a cure being looked for and the Cataclysm. Alliance alchemists might have devised an alternative to the night elf ritual, but there’s no evidence they would have somehow done so sooner.

But the issue is, either Gilneas does isolate, or it doesn’t. If it does, it survives long enough for the worgen to become a threat.

If it doesn’t? The Scourge army has an open path to just take that land too. Of course they weren’t particularly interested in Gilneas; there’s a wall stopping them. But no wall means it doesn’t matter how invested they are in taking Gilneas; they took everything in the north, from the east coast to the west, with few holdouts remaining. All of Lordaeron fell, easy-peasy. The Scourge was that frighteningly efficient that even when they’re sole investment is just taking the land because they can, they do take that land. If they have access to Gilneas, and they were pounding at the wall, it’s only logical to assume without a wall to stop them, they would have gone through. And like everywhere else, there’s nothing to really stop them.

So isolation did save them from that threat. And you’re right, it didn’t save them from the worgen. But the worgen were already inside, summoned by Arugal (under Alpha Prime’s command) before he fled to Shadowfang Keep. The wall never could have kept them out, because they were inside from the start. But the wall did serve to stymie the spread of the curse; Alpha Prime still wanted to spread it as much as possible, and we see the areas surrounding Gilneas with worgen. No wall to keep them in, worgen spread out to further avoid detection (which they were doing prior to their full assault on Gilneas city). Worgen spread further, worgen curse spread further. That’s part of the goal, after all.

Hell, Alpha might even have learned the Scythe, his endgoal, wasn’t even in Gilneas for a good portion of his search. Now Gilneas’s worgen problems are looking pretty good! It’s just Ashenvale and Duskwood have bigger worgen problems, and that curse spread more.

The Wall didn’t save Gilneas from the worgen, but everything suggests it did save Azeroth from the worgen (not that the worgen would have been a cataclysmic threat, but it did limit the spread).

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It should be noted that by the time the Scourge got to Gilneas, the Legion had already arrived and taken the bulk of their forces to Kalimdor for their invasion over there and left the Scourge in the hands of the the 3 Dreadlord brothers(who Kel’thuzad said were running the Scourge into the ground). Arthas was also over in Kalimdor sabotaging the Legion at the time too, and by the time he returned to reclaim control over the Scourge, Illidan had begun his attack on the Lich King, causing his control over the undead to slip and the Plaguelands devolved into a three way civil war between Sylvanas and the Forsaken, the Dreadlords, and the remaining Scourge.

Basically, Gilneas never had to deal with the Scourge at it’s full strength and that’s probably why their wall protected them as much as it did. If Arthas had been there with the full might of the Scourge, Gilneas would have likely been crushed just like everyone else was.

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I am 99% Alliance involvement in the Lordaeron reclamation will become canonical. Hell, we might get some throwaway line for anyone who has the achievement going “hey you Alliance folks helped us, now we are going to help you” deal.

I was talking about a hypothetical scenario where Gilneas rejected it’s isolationist tendencies earlier, giving enough time to prevent it’s fall, not that it would have never had them in the first place. Which in itself was already a bit besides the point of my initial response; that the Gilnean’s isolationism directly contributed to their nations downfall and that was an intentional storytelling choice Blizzard made for the worgen starter story.

Whether you want to believe that Blizzard didn’t convey that well in what they wrote or if you want to attribute Gilneas’ survival post-WC3 to the wall and other products of their isolationism as opposed to the threats of that time having bigger fish to fry etc… etc… I can’t stop you. But the pretty clear intention of that story is to show not just the literal events that cause the worgen to join the Alliance but why that’s meant to be a good thing. A good change for them beyond just the chance to one day get some revenge. That the people of Gilneas are coming out of a long, largely self-inflicted, dark period and are being helped out of there by friends new and old.

And nothing against all the theory-crafting and alternate events, that is interesting, but I think it’s veering away from that initial point. Plus it’s just getting really long xD

So the Gilneans lost their country due to the Forsaken and blighting in the first place, and now the Forsaken are going to “help them reclaim it” by blighting it again?

Tell me this is a 4 month early April Fools joke, because there’s no way multiple people okayed this to go live and thought it made sense.

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Not to mention, the moment that the order to Set Teldrasill ablaze happened, the follow up was Saurfang pointing out the very simple causality of it.

“What have you done?! Now they’ll come for us! All of them!”

Having friends helps, folks

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We could say the same for things like the Bronze flight storyline or the worgen heritage armor quest.
They are perfectly capable to write the most stupid things and when it comes to worgens, they are very rarely shown in a good light.

Seriously, blighting Gilneas again… It’s in their best interest to explain everything in a way that dpesn’t sound stupid.

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