Sure, but there’s a reason Warriors seemed fine with this until the Ret buff. Because the optics of Blizzard taking one position and then changing their mind for the most populated class in the game due to “community feedback”, was hell a bad.
So now you have players of the lowest population class in the game thinking “well the squeaky wheel gets the oil, I’d like a piece of that”.
If Blizzard had decided to give Ret a minor buff initially, (prior to saying they wouldn’t go there) and made a justification for doing so based on their own internal data this wouldn’t be happening. People would have basically copped it and thought “fair enough”. It’s that they did it by popular request. It essentially opens the door to everyone to have a crack at it.
I don’t think we need a buff. We’re not in a good spot, but things will be okay and we are getting better. We are within range of the pack. But I can’t really blame people for trying it on either.
Also “you had your time” is a rubbish position. Not all people playing the class are the same people who played it two expacs ago - let it go, it’s not relevant to the topic of balance as it stands now. Every class has always had a viable spec, but there’s always a top and a bottom. Class balance patches, if they should happen at all, should be based on objective thresholds and metrics, not on forum protests.
Warriors use parts of all 3 specs for PvP. The only one they could buff without completely breaking PvP warriors is prot, and they only use that for defensives. TBH, i don’t see any way they could buff warriors without also buffing the PvP aspect of the class.
Forgive my ignorance - I don’t pvp much in wotlkc. But does any comp use titans grip?
If not, you could easily buff titans grip without impacting pvp. And if you were worried about ICC scaling you could bake the change into a tier set bonus.
There’s ways to do it I think - it’s more a question of whether it is needed at this point. Probably not.
Yeah I think buffing Titan’s Grip would be fine. I’m no Gladiator, but I’ve only seen a handful of Fury Warriors in PVP, and they are typically in Wintergrasp or Alterac Valley. Not Arena.
I’m fine with asymmetric balance, which is what we had.
But Blizzard decided to flip the table with the ret buff so here we are. There’s a pathway back to where we were, but I doubt ret paladins like the idea of it.
I’ll add to my original comment- Paladins with a lower CD (thus more effective) damage mitigation of Divine Protection (with better talent optimization since the cooldown reduction % is greater, plus 4% stam), two/three taunts, consistent AoE threat, Argent Defender, Dsac, consistent block uptime…
they also get Divine Guardian.
To classify this as ‘asymmetry’ is oversimplifying a diverse and overpowered prot paladin toolkit.
Our Algalon 25 kill with 3 pallys. If you dig deeper in our logs, you will find out that 3 pallys is our absolute max we ever have in a 25man raid in Ulduar. Mostly 2 pally.
Oh and btw, that same log features 3! dps warriors. On Algalon 25.
Surely Warriors are absolutely garbage and nobody takes them.
Oh and as you can see from our ridiculously bad logs and killtime, its obvious that overall performance gives you the kills, not high parsing ability.
Pretending the main reason for that is anything other then people being metaslaves is the same.
Everyone and their grandmother always search for protpallys for every 10 man gdkp on my server.
Totally ignoring that you dont need a protpally for the content.
I mean i would agree that protpally is stronger, and obviously the meta slaves prefer protpallys atm.
But bringing up such fancy mind cannon arguments like you do on how you NEED them, or how its the standard of having an average of 2.5/5 pallys in 10/25 man is not of value to the discussion.
At most i would agree that having 2 pallys in 10 man being recognized as the go to meta setup is problematic when it comes to class diversity, but then again, its more of a player issue, not a balance issue.
I never suggested people weren’t being metaslaves. I’m saying in the metaslave economy of raiding, Prot Paladins are very easily two tiers above the next tank. So no other class is seen as MT in about 90% of cases.
But wheres the problem with that ? In the metaslave economy of naxx raiding, protwarriors where easily two tiers above the next tank when it came to speedrunning.
People adapting meta mentality for their guild/pugruns where its not even remotely necessary to do so =/= problematic class balancing.
We never had anyone complain about playing with at least 2 dps warriors in every raid, oftentimes 3, even tho that is a crass anti meta setup.
The only time the meta ever was kinda necessary to follow was SWP, Muru with 1-2 Warlocks was a pain in the bottom for our raid. Bad old days with bad class balancing.
where exactly are we ? At the point where you show that all your issues is being salty about rets getting a buff ? Cmon bro, not every thread.
You could have a discussion with a protpally that is actually open to admit that his spec is OP, and would love to find a solution for a perfect tank balance.
I asked in multiple threads for balance changes that people deem reasonable to bring protpally in line, alternatively for changes that buff the other tanks.
I got zero response so far.
Go ahead, give me the changes you propose, im open for discussions.
I can agree with that. The disparity in shield wall from warrior, and divine protection from protpally is astounding, since its an easy to compare case, and one is obviously better (divine protection). Atleast giving protwarrior the glyphed version glyph free should be totally a thing.
Um… okay i guess? I really dont understand why this would be necessary, especially for warriors, but why not. Its not like having more taunts is anywhere close to being a part of the pally being the best tank whatsoever. Most pallys would actually trade their secondary taunt for a real aoe taunt, even if that would be on a high cooldown.
You are also hopelessly unaware of how Druids work.
you can not add an additional target to an ability that does not have a set amount of targets it hits.
The solution for ferals is what people already have been aware of before wotlk classic even released: swipe misses the additional aggro modifier other tanks have in their aoe toolkit, thus leading to miserable aoe thread. Bears are fine on 3 target cleave during berserk, outside of that they fall of very hard in aoe thread.
Edit: To the DK part: Dks dont suffer from having poor AOE thread, they suffer from having readily available aoe threat, due to the overreliance on rune availability and DND cooldown. Also very stationary due to DND.
Due to critical blocking Shield block with talents should never be available all the time, 30 seconds sounds good to me. Be aware though that blocking falls of hard during later phases, since
a) blocked hits fall off the hittable at first, meaning if your total avoidance gets higher, you block less hits
b) there will be no more blockvalue gear from ICC onwards available in the game
And this is the crux of the matter. None of the other changes you mentioned, while some of them would indeed be nice to have, would change the tanking meta at all.
Ardent defender is outright broken, and i know what im talking about, being a protpally main with a protpally alt.
Warriors are the only competing meta tank, when the content allows for not needing a beefy tank (speedrunning meta in naxx as an example), but that probably will not be the case anymore.
If Argent defender is nerfed for protpallys, that would bring them much more in line, but would overall be more of a nerf to whole raidteams of people, and is rather unlikely to happen.
The basic problem with AD is, that outside of being a cheat death, which in itself is nice since its a perfect tool for dealing with fails, and also allows the protpally to just not use defensives on cooldown in expectation of big dmg inc, but rather wait for the big dmg /the healer fail to happen, and then react afterwards.
Outside of the cheat death mechanic AD also provides this amazingly strong ability of reducing all dmg taken while on low HP, the same as will of the necropolis of the deathknight - but stronger.
Like the direct comparison of shield wall and divine guardian, nobody can understand how anyone back in the day at blizzard looked at those abilitys and was like “yep, that seems fine. Two abilitys that are very similar, but the pally needs the better version, kekw”
Giving the other tank an AD like ability would basically fix the Tank imbalance once and for all.
Its heavily debatable wether or not the Druid should get the dmg reducing portion of AD, since that would increase their real EHP values up to a level where they would become the absolutely uncontested hardest thank in the game by far. but warrior could absolutely get it, and it would not lead to any problems in balance whatsoever.
I would love for a gaming environment where people would all the time pick their tanks for a 25 man raid based on player performance, attendance etc. and not based on “the meta”. Blizzard made a huge by mistake by buffing algalons physical dmg output in this iteration of the game - if they would not have done this, most of the discussion would not even happen, since its those overtuned tank dmg encounters that result in the disparity of tank viability in the beginning.
For 10 man, a perfect tank balance will never happen, since there will always be a small bias to take the tanks that fit better into the buffsetup for the raid.
They would have to buff (or remove) the damage reduction from TG, but then whose to say that we won’t see a ton of fury warriors in arena then? They’d also just have to go back and nerf it later anyway, so whats the point?