RDF - To the Devs, Lead Design, and the "but muh social experience crowd"

[Luuni-area-52]

@Dumbcake-westfall

We have no say cause blizzard doesn’t value feedback

Change Hearthstones to 30 Minutes. - Blue Tracker

Old Blizzard valued feedback!

You know, there was a time before “ghetto hearthing” was possible and you had to rely on your hearthstone cooldown, or a mage port. I know it’s crazy to even try and imagine such harsh living conditions.

I will tell you what, guys. I’ll bring this up with the designers. Though the hearthstone is reasonable, since many of you have become used to “ghetto hearth” style travel, it may be deemed an appropriate change.

I can make no promises.

Update : Alright, all – we’re going to make the cooldown on hearthstones 30 minutes when 3.1.0 releases. Enjoy your sweet victory.

Thanks to those who provided feedback constructively.

Players said a system should be changed, and they changed it. Amazing!

[Sethyl-faerlina]

Dude if it helps you sleep tonight thinking that your opinion is factual and undeniable and that it is impossible to think otherwise, be my guess. Just stop trying to convince me lol let it go.

[Raharrak-darkspear]

@Luuni-area-52

Players said a system should be changed, and they changed it. Amazing!

That was also back when Blizzard was decent.

@Sethyl-faerlina

your opinion is factual

Are you seriously this dense, or are you just screwing with me?

[Callieamaya-proudmoore]

I’m ok with RDF not being in WotLK classic at release. However, the social argument that Blizz and the anti-RDF crowd always seemed pretty flimsy and weak.

Everything Blizz and the anti-RDF folks claim RDF brought to the game, people just sitting in cities running dungeon after dungeon, ect, already happens in the game without RDF.

In that interview from a few days ago, I believe the Blizz Dev gave the real reason they don’t want RDF. That is to slow gear acquisition and keep the content more relevent for longer. They do something similar in retail with all the stupid systems.

So, good post OP. The social experience reason has always been BS.

[Juson-illidan]

@Charax-emerald-dream

Players will always go for the most efficient tool. That doesn’t mean they think it is good for the game. To say that offering the RDF tool as an option would “improve social interaction”… LOL. Nonsense.

There is something to be said about RDF vs using chat channels to recruit players. I think that RDF is more of a prison-type mentality of like “I’m here because the system brought me here… I know nothing about any of you” vs reading what an individual wrote and feeling more of a connection in the sense of running the same content as someone else.

Still, you can’t beat the convenience of RDF, as you said it yourself: “Players will always go for the most efficient tool.”

Perhaps changes could be made to RDF!? As of right now though, I have zero problems with the group finder as it is… My groups have been highly social, it’s great; but how much of that is due to channel 4 popping off vs RDF being a less social experience?

[Raharrak-darkspear]

@Callieamaya-proudmoore

However, the social argument that Blizz and the anti-RDF always seemed pretty flimsy and weak.

According to that recent interview, it’s because they don’t want us leveling too quickly. Hmm.

[Sethyl-faerlina]

I’m going to return that question to you lol. Not sure how old you are but you need to revisit what you believe are hard undeniable facts vs your preferences in this world.

[Dumbcake-westfall]

@Luuni-area-52

Old Blizzard valued feedback!

Old Blizzard was the best company to ever make games. Except maybe Sierra.

This Blizzard? They’ve lost all credibility in so many ways.

[Raharrak-darkspear]

@Sethyl-faerlina

Not sure how old you are but you need to revisit what you believe are hard undeniable facts vs your preferences in this world.

You realize that this doesn’t make any sense, how you’ve written it, right?

[Sethyl-faerlina]

English is my 2nd language, it is very probable that I make mistakes…

[Callieamaya-proudmoore]

Slowing down progession to keep the content relevent for longer. It does kind of make sense that they would want to do that from a business stand point.

[Deunan-atiesh]

Exactly its subjective, you presented it as a fact:

@Sethyl-faerlina

History showed us that RDF had a massive negative impact on the quality of player interactions

So in your time playing YOU have had a history of bad player interactions that you attribute to RDF. There is no historical proof that RDF was the decline as you claim.

[Raharrak-darkspear]

@Sethyl-faerlina

it is very probable that I make mistakes…

I can see that. You can’t tell the difference between a fact and an opinion.

[Dysheki-area-52]

I’m not here to kink shame.

[Raharrak-darkspear]

@Callieamaya-proudmoore

It does kind of make sense that they would want to do that.

I could see that being reasonable. I more or less meant that they’ve changed their angle on things.

Yes, if RDF was implemented Day 1, we probably would level quickly, but if they want to remove something from the game, at least be consistent with your reasoning.

Although, in terms of longevity, it doesn’t make a lot of sense, since they have a 70 boost anyway.

[Snowbite-grobbulus]

@Raharrak-darkspear

I stated the definition of what an MMO is; RDF would add to that very definition.

Yeah lets stick another arm onto that malformed beast.

[Snowbite-grobbulus]

@Raharrak-darkspear

You can’t tell the difference between a fact and an opinion.

To be fair neither can you lmao. Your version of a fact is anything you claim a fact to be lol. Just because youre as droll as spock doesnt mean youre as smart as they are or as logical

[Snowbite-grobbulus]

@Raharrak-darkspear

That in turn means that the playerbase the average player will see increases.

No. It doesnt lol. You’re equating “see” with interact. This is not a fact like you claim. It’s entirely subjective based upon each players willingness to interact with the group.

@Raharrak-darkspear

Which IN TURN means that the definition of the MMO will be improved upon.

And no, no it doesnt lmao. Why? just because you said so? This is that whole you stating things are facts doesnt make them facts thing i touched on earlier.

[Ogrekill-whitemane]

not everybody wants to be your friend, i get it you want you want your attention in an mmorpg but limiting group activity only limits the attention you will receive from your in-game chat. try providing an example of how no rdf will improve social interaction and experience with less group activity thank you

@Facecancer-sulfuras

@Ogrekill-whitemane

saying it has been explained it isnt an example, i’m still waiting.

You can wait until you die of old age

I. Do. Not. Care.

The answer you keep gettinf isnt the answer you want so you pretend you never got it expecting the answer to change.

At this point im just going to report you for trolling and ignore you.

guess i’ll have to wait til the end of time for you to muster up 1 example, that’s fine i am okay with having a discussion about a topic which i’ve provided multiple examples to counter the reasons behind the removal of such a tool, while the opposition has provided none to support it.

@Bewty-earthfury

Social interaction in this game is found more in the idle moments.

I get both sides.

RDF makes the raid / group organization automated and streamlined. You don’t really advertise or send tells anymore. The waiting around period is shorter and easier for the increasingly pressed-for-time lives we all live.

The social part of groups comes into play much less when you’re locked in on completing the content.

In my experience, most strangers that became guild mates or pals of mine after a group… it wasn’t during the actual clearing process of the dungeon - but more so on the way to the dungeon, or during the CR process after a dumb wipe, or BSing in a group when someone left and we’re waiting around for a replacement, or when there’s downtime.

There are exceptions. If people have had bad experiences with healers or tanks all day long and they suddenly get a good one, that can create a bond just by nature of how bad their day has been. But that can happen in both RDF and non-RDF contexts.

I’d just say that the less idle time you have, the less social the game becomes. If you’re artificially removing time consuming processes, you’re also removing the potential for manual social interaction. That’s not some revelation, it’s just simple math. That’s where the two crowds are split. Quality of life usually translates to less time wasted (less idle time in game) and that’s where the vast majority of social interaction comes from in MMOs.

So while some processes are maddening for one crowd, like making groups, another crowd sort of relishes its capacity for social interaction. Obviously it depends on the type of person you are. I’ve been in straight to business, no chit-chat, no BS groups, and I’ve also been in ones with very gregarious, overly chatty Kathy’s - and everything in between.

so what you’re saying is it’s up to the player and not the tool, i agree, and this should be heard by blizzard wow classic team since they are the arbiters of truth when it comes to the reasons of why the removed the tool in the first place;

you aren’t going to form your guild in a dungeon, people are sure to find pugs and attempt to poach/recruit them but that doesn’t make up the majority of dungeon runs.

the reason i’ve listed the examples of how no-RDF doesn’t improve social interaction or experience is because blizzard’s reason for removing it is their prioritization of social interaction and experience, which doesn’t make sense if you actually think about what RDF provides as a tool, increased group activity. You are sure to group up with players from other servers, that is what the tool was designed for, does that mean you have to stop playing with your guildmates or friends from that point on when it gets reenabled into the game? no you still have access to your friends and guildmates because the tool doesn’t limit you from who you are able to play with.

removing the tool limits who you are able to play with, reduces group activity, promotes gdkp, hard reserving loot groups, rejecting unwanted classes. where is the improvement in social interactions and experience in that?

@Sethyl-faerlina

Because the way it is doing it is damaging the sense of community and the need to interactions between players. For you it’s quantity of interactions, for others it’s quality.

increasing group activity doesn’t damage sense of community, i have made friends from other servers with cross-realm battlegrounds, and i’m sure many more would be made with RDF since i’d be able to play with more players with it enabled.

@Snowbite-grobbulus

lol playable by what metric exactly??? Your game is entirely playable. its just not playable the way you want. Again these are things youve been told. Can you stop?

@Snowbite-grobbulus

Yes. Objectively it does this and this is not a thing that can be argued. And no one being honest would argue against this.

But its funny how you omit how bland and stale it makes the game. Might as well play mobile games at that point lmao. Not to mention open world content becomes so irrelevant as a result lol.

so forcing players out of being able to play with more people makes the open world less bland? i guess if you look at it from a backwards clown face perspective i can see it.

there is tons of content in the open world with or without rdf, noone can argue against that, the idea that running dungeons will take away from your farm routes, your kalu’ak fishing derby, questing, world pvp is not an argument either, dungeons are already in the game, RDF only increases the amount of players you can group with. i didn’t do quests level 15-60 in classic wow the first time, people aren’t going to exclusively quest 70-80 in northrend the first time, the open world is not going to be some utopia of social experience for you to cling on to and force people to listen to your chat, people are going to be grinding out dungeons like they have throughout the entire classic experience, the only part in classic where open world was actually over-active was phase 2 classic so insinuating that adding rdf will ruin open world experiences is a terrible argument since most people dungeon grind to get to the max level if possible, especially at the start of the expansion.

questing may be faster but the majority of questing isn’t group orientated, unless you want to to level slower.

so playing without RDF helps the open world how again? by forcing people to play with less group activity for the sake of social interactions or experience? great, glad we cleared that up.

@Sethyl-faerlina

While I appreciate a good debate, I think we are turning a bit in circle you and I. We most likely are not looking for the same type of experience when playing an mmorpg, and that difference if what we are looking for translate into different preferences when it comes to how the game is played.

the only circle i see is trying to explain how no rdf will improve social interactions or experience while at the same time reducing group activity without it.

@Juson-illidan

There is something to be said about RDF vs using chat channels to recruit players. I think that RDF is more of a prison-type mentality of like “I’m here because the system brought me here… I know nothing about any of you” vs reading what an individual wrote and feeling more of a connection in the sense of running the same content as someone else.

Still, you can’t beat the convenience of RDF, as you said it yourself: “Players will always go for the most efficient tool.”

Perhaps changes could be made to RDF!? As of right now though, I have zero problems with the group finder as it is… My groups have been highly social, it’s great!

dungeons are not a social construct, you dont need to know the players you are playing with; do you ask all the players in pug groups you get into about who they are and what they do in life? i know i sure dont, i get in a group and finish the content the group was created for, and i move on as fast as i can to the next one with what time i have available to me.

try telling this to players who can’t do dungeons because noone is running the dungeon they need. guess they wont ever find out their connection to players who dont want to run the dungeon they need, or the players who dont need the player’s specific class or spec, or the group that hard reserves loot which the player needs.

@Raharrak-darkspear

I could see that being reasonable. I more or less meant that they’ve changed their angle on things.

Yes, if RDF was implemented Day 1, we probably would level quickly, but if they want to remove something from the game, at least be consistent with your reasoning.

Although, in terms of longevity, it doesn’t make a lot of sense, since they have a 70 boost anyway.

the only real reason i can see them removing it over is over a business decision to keep the carrot on the stick in front of players longer, but to create such division over an issue by saying social experience and interaction will be ruined with rdf is a slap in the face of all who play this game.

@Snowbite-grobbulus

@Raharrak-darkspear

That in turn means that the playerbase the average player will see increases.

No. It doesnt lol. You’re equating “see” with interact. This is not a fact like you claim. It’s entirely subjective based upon each players willingness to interact with the group.

@Raharrak-darkspear

Which IN TURN means that the definition of the MMO will be improved upon.

And no, no it doesnt lmao. Why? just because you said so? This is that whole you stating things are facts doesnt make them facts thing i touched on earlier.

where are your facts to support your opinion that limiting group activity by removing RDF will improve social interaction and experience?

[Raharrak-darkspear]

@Ogrekill-whitemane

the only real reason i can see them removing it over is over a business decision to keep the carrot on the stick

It all comes down to money, Blizzard’s greedy.