Then make your own groups, surely you can carry yourself up there?
I think people don’t understand how it works, gets frustrated because they don’t get into groups (not realizing that rIO is most likely not the reason they don’t get into groups) then just want to vent. They want a scapegoat.
People seem to forget that about 50 dps queue for a key rather quickly. Sure, your dps toon may have the gear to complete a +14, but some other guy with 15 more ilvls also queued. Of course they are going to take the guy with better gear.
People want to lay all of their issues at rIO’s feet, while making up strawman arguments about it.
No one claims that a person with a higher IO will be better than a person with a lower IO.
No one claims IO score = skill.
When you pug and want to succeed, its about playing the odds. You want to invite people that give you the best chance at succeeding. You want a variety of classes. (maybe you want healthstones. or brezes. lust. melee vs ranged variety). You also typically want experience with the content you are doing.
None of this promises success, but it gives you a better shot.
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No one is harassing people withtheir IO score. Except maybe on occasion when you have high IO that generally just got carried (and yes this happens) but that’s a really small margin. Like 1 on ever 20. There’s really no point ridiculing people score simply because when we put our key out there most of us want to time it so we can do a higher key.
Alot of people doesn’t seem to care about that, as long as they get their +10/+15 for the week. Imagine the frustration the lead would get. Remember to the pug it’s 1 key. To the lead he may have run it 5, 6, 7 times and downgraded it due to 1 person’s incompetence. That’s 2-3 hours he’ll never get back.
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RIO is a symptom, not a cause.
The content is failable and people have to invest a lot of time wrangling their own keys, so there is a desperate market for padding.
If you are looking to join a M+ on the strength of your score, then you are on the weak end of that market. The person holding the key is going to ask more from you than just meeting the baseline, you will have to go beyond.
If the content were less imperative, if you could just try until you got tired of it, then it would not be such a big deal but because you don’t have unlimited attempts no one is going to take a chance on you.
You are going to have to be worth more than the key
People tell you to push your own keys because they know what those rigors are, and they expect that it will teach you a lesson.
RIO is a reaction to the content style. It is a genie that will not be bottled again.
The score is the rule by which you will have to play, one way or another.
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This and this, all day. Most people thought of it as a handy tool. From day one, I knew it would be abused, it was obvious.
The game and us players have had systems to measure qualification for quite some time, and in the 16 years that I’ve played, we have never needed anything (as far as I could tell) more. We didn’t have some third party app telling elitists to only let so and so in based on some silly, petty data that really doesn’t matter, in order to “let” someone else play the content with them.
I hear the retorts like “start your own group” and “you don’t deserve to join us/me” etc…I answer those in such manners to let them know that their attitude drives me away from ever wanting to join them, and they will never know how good or bad I am. Their loss, not mine. Anti-social people abusing a number crunching app to belittle others.
I know it had some good intent, but the people who use it need to have it, too. Whenever I’ve had a 7-10 key, I’d run with anyone that had the right amount of gear, and 70% of runs were successes. I’ve also passed a few raiderio check and none were successful (out of several). So much for that silly app. It would be nice if people just communicated and were actually social, again. Instead of relying on third party apps/addons. Technology is kill our spirit and our social abilities. IMHO…
/moo
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Any of that can and will happen with or without raiderio. I see what you’re saying, in that it’s a sense of security. At the end of the day, it’s a 50/50 roll of the die.
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Again another strawman argument against raider IO that is simply not true. Just because you were not picked for a key means someone else with a higher success chance than you. I am working on keystone master right now, I have 3 15s timed. I apply for a crapload of keys in the 15-17 range and I probably get into 1/30ish. I didn’t apply for 15s right off the bat. First I got all 10s on time. Then only applied for 12s and 13s. Once I have those timed my io was higher enough for applying for 14s and 15s. I have all 14s completed on time except atal which is 13. My IO is highly enough for 15s which I applying for and I rarely get in but I do get in. Raider io forces you to work your way up, it’s a grind and raider io is the only reason pug keys is viable.
Damage, ilevel or what ever means nothing compared to a experienced player. I would rather take a drastically under geared alt that knows mechanics of a dungeon over a crazy geared person who doesn’t know the dungeon.
I assume who ever you main is, is dps because otherwise you wouldn’t be complaining. But chances are when you applied someone else was better than you so they took them over you. All this add-on does is show a players experience nothing more. If you don’t have experience no one will want you till you work your way up the Raider IO ladder
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So what do you suggest as a method that can’t be “abused”?
Just because something can happen either way doesn’t make it a 50/50. That would be like saying vaccines do nothing because people can still get sick so it’s 50/50 either way.
If I roll a dice I either get a 6 or I don’t so it’s 50/50. See how this doesn’t work?
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I never said that I had a solid solution. But, I did say
Going to armory was a good way, and it told you the important data without crunching stupid numbers that practically don’t matter. RIO not only takes the data that only matters, but also adds their twist to it, telling people not to only go by the armory but their silly “score”. Any additional scores, numbers, etc. that are not core to the game, and are “fluff” numbers. It makes the users elitists and separates the community, which happened.
Let’s put it this way: the game was never this bad before it, and we managed to get it done.
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Currently, the only measure we have outside of rIO (and things similar) is ilvl. Unfortunately, ilvl should NOT be the system used to determine a players skill level. A lot of that had to do with WF/TF, but more notably it’s simply because of the amount of moderate gear thrown at players these days. I have people in my casual raid group that are 460+ ilvl pulling less than 40k on some, or most, fights. Those were numbers we were seeing back in EP. Hell, it was a number we even saw in Uldir by some people. They don’t need to be in content trying to push their gear when they can’t even properly use the current gear that they have.
Fortunately, it’s more your loss than anyone else’s. The people who know how to use rIO and regularly push are doing just fine without your help. Seeing as though you have no notable experience in much endgame PvE content (no AotC’s, and the only dungeons you’ve run on this toon were a handful of +2-4 keys back in s2) then I’d assume it’s not really anyone else’s loss.
So what did these rIO checks consist of? Were you just looking at the blanket score that they have? Or did you actually look at the amount of runs they did for the key you were inviting them to? Did you see how many were in time vs over time? Did you look at their talent options to see if they were using proper setups (provided you know that information in the first place)?
This is what a lot of people don’t realize about rIO. It gives us so much information, and most people look at it as if the initial score is end all be all when it’s not.
And those systems you are referencing were also “abused”.
So I am discarding them. Because they can also be used in the very way you are complaining about with rIO.
Gearscore, being inspected, ilvl.
There have always been ways of judging a person before inviting them that allowed “abuse”.
PS I am putting “abuse” in quotes because people aren’t being abused.
We are still managing to get it done.
I can already see your ilvl
No it doesn’t
This happened before rIO
All I can gather is you don’t understand how io works or what its purpose is.
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Another thread blaming a tool instead of the meme community that uses it.
Well, the armory does tell you everything. Some third party “score” is more reliable than the games? I fail to see how.
You do realize that many of those IO scores were carries, right? That’s part of the biggest complaint about RIO and how it’s just another “score” and doesn’t and can’t tell you who actually knows the mechanics and who was a carry. But the players can, and it’s communication that’s key over some made up “score” that can’t and won’t tell you “skill”.
Funny how you saw that I am no “help” via simple past runs and raider io didn’t help there. I have noticed that a lot of my keys are not showing up, on this toon or my main. Main still has a 9+ piece lol Which leads to how is someone supposed to climb the ladder if the elites lock it off half way up for their club, only? I’m looking to run and learn mechanics, not get carries like many do in 8-12’s. I’ve seen it and it’s ugly. I have the gear, exp, for a 8-10 because I have ran them and completed (on my main) them, before raiderio was a big thing. Now, I can’t get in despite it because…rio “score”.
Did you read what I just wrote, there? Geez, I even said I ran with folks based on their gear score only, and said screw raiderio. I have a brain and can communicate with people (social skills in an online game…imagine that!) and we form the group, and run it.
I’m not one to rely on third party, suspicious app garbage. I talk, examine and do.
/moo
Players had to operate on WoW data and that was something everyone could agree on due to it being directly from the game. Not too many people would trust an outsider “score”. We didn’t need that then, and now you can see how it’s more of a mess.
People will be competitive, I get it. But if you think raiderio is near flawless and not equally or more abused, than all I can say is you’re delusional.
No, we’re having this issue, instead. You’re leaving out how this “score” immediately says “dis dood iz gud, dat dood bad” and “good dude” just winds up getting carries and other loses out time and time again and gives up, and “gud” guy is all you have and he knows nothing due to carries and then you look for more and there isn’t because the elites chased off who was left.
That’s how it works. Yup.
Yeah it does. RaiderIO “score” is not a WoW number.
You missed the point. I stated that it wasn’t as badly abused and I hate to tell you that the community was MUCH different and closer than it is now. Many of the original players (I am one) of vanilla, and also the ones that looked forward to classic. The guys ran to classic, even stating how the dung/raiding is f-ed up, and not nearly as close.
We need a community to make raiding and mythic better. Not some silly, third party number app. If it is so wonderful, why is this such a disaster?
Gearscore was an outsider score that people definitely trusted and relied on.
No one has ever said raiderIO is flawless.
Once again, you don’t understand rIO’s point or what its purpose is.
It shows experience. That is all. It shows what your experience is.
RaiderIO is more than the score. Once again see : You don’t understand what information rIO brings to the table
I am disagreeing with your rose colored glasses nostalgic memories.
People were judged harshly by their gearscore.
So to recap.
People used 3rd party scoring systems before rIO. This is not new for the community.
RaiderIO is not a judge of skill, its a reflection of experience.
RaiderIO is not your over all score. That is only a part of what it brings to the table.
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RaiderIO simply pulls the info from blizzards armory so I guess that makes the armory toxic too, aye?
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The score is simply representative of the average key level that a person does. A 1200 io means that a person has likely timed every single dungeon on a +10. Or maybe that character has done 15’s on some dungeons, but only 7’s on other dungeons. Who knows. The point is, the initial score you see is simply the average of what the player has experienced at peak across all dungeons. My Shammy alt has a 400? io score at 440 ilvl. He’s done both mechagon keys at 8 and 9 in time. Am I a competent enough player for those keys? Sure. Am I likely to get invited to those keys compared to players at 465 ilvl and a 1k io? Heck no, but I was able to run those because I ran them with my dad, who was the tank.
I’d love to see your proof on that. I really would. Just because people advertise in trade chat for paid carries doesn’t mean more people buy them than just run them naturally, and for you to think otherwise is absurd.
But again, I wouldn’t expect you to understand that because you’re still of the mindset that rIO is ONLY a score to judge people on, which is blatantly wrong. Raider IO shows you: how many keys a person has done, whether they were in time or not, what that persons ilvl is, what their current raid progress is, what talents they have, what azerite essences they have, what corruptions they’ve got equipped, etc. It’s all bundled up on a single page. Some of the information may be wrong (because gear statistics only show up after log off I believe, someone correct me if I’m wrong there) but for the most part it tells you exactly what you need to know about a player’s experience.
A lot of your keys aren’t showing up? Really? Because I just ran a Siege of Boralus +3 and it showed up just fine half an hour later. Seems sus, bud.
Regardless, it’s fine if you wanna run and learn mechanics. But you, as well as others, need to learn that the BEST place to do that is in low-mid keys with people who ALSO want to learn mechanics. Anything above a +7 you should already appropriately know what to expect from the dungeon, and all you have beyond that is simple affixes.
Yeah, you said you passed rIO checks and none were successful. You didn’t go into great detail to explain what the checks actually were, so I can only assume it meant you looked at the initial score and nothing else like so many others do.
Raider IO doesn’t negate the need for effective communication, especially in higher keys. What it does is show you the applicants experience, amongst other things, as a way to determine the likelihood of your key’s success.
So to start, I don’t like Raider IO, and think it contributes to something similar to the employment loop people suffer in real life. “You need to have experience in this field to get this job. But to get experience in this field you need the job you’re applying for.” It’s a shame to see that become more, and more of an issue in WoW, and things like GearScore in Wrath, and Raider IO, contribute to that problem.
However, Raider IO is the best way to gauge experience, since it culminates a score based on content you have already done. I kind of see it in the same way I see arena rating - in which you don’t want to queue with someone with a way lower rating because it would drop your MMR if you failed.
It’s not so much Raider IO’s existence that’s the problem; it’s the way the game is designed to pigeonhole the mass into needing to run M+ to be optimal because M+ is the most efficient way of gearing up a character and getting BiS pieces.
I think Blizzard should actually consider adding a rating feature for M+, baked into the game, and then change how the loot is distributed so it doesn’t feel like it’s mandatory, but still a legitimate option.
And no, even with how loot has been homogenized, item level is still not a good way to determine group eligibility.
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But that isn’t true at all. This analogy falls flat on its face when you look at it for more than 5 seconds.
Its not hard to actually get experience, people want to skip the experience and go straight to the end.
In your employment analogy, its like applying for a managerial position in an industry you have no experience in, and being told that maybe you should start at an entry level position instead. Instead of starting in an entry level position, people are complaining they are being locked out of the higher positions.
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