Raid vs Mythic+ loot tables

[Mcfluffins-proudmoore]

@Andymatters-zuljin

I don’t want to be dramatic here, but as somebody who does not mythic raid but is top 1% in both pvp and m+, this decision is an easy unsub for me. I am a top player in 2 of the 3 end game contents, but I have a gear disadvantage in that same content to somebody who mythic raids? I don’t get it, Blizz seems reluctant to change it, so that’s an easy decision on my end to finally throw in the towel on my sub.

Please explain how anything changes for you? You have always had a gear disadvantage to someone who also does mythic raiding.

[Belinessa-sargeras]

Weekly from all raid lol

[Kaellthas-trollbane]

@Raiimir-stormrage

That’s not what you’re getting here though.

If gear is rare enough, some people will feel like any gear at all is like winning the lottery.

What I don’t get is this:

@Kaivax

While outdoor world gameplay and professions offer a range of epic gear

What is the “range” of “epic loot” offered by world content? The only epic loot that world content gives now is a 1 in 8 shot at world boss loot. Is there something coming up in Shadowlands I’m unaware of?

[Raiimir-stormrage]

@Skumnasty-tichondrius

This is the entire point of the changes, to make loot feel MORE rewarding. The logic (although some may not agree with it) is that when there is less loot dropping each piece obtained feels more rewarding.

When there is less loot dropping, getting that 2nd Vers/mast ring (or wtv combo you dislike) feels even less rewarding.

[Shinhye-tichondrius (Shinhye)]

They should make Mythic raiding also scaling instead of fixed numbers for guild who wants to get “better” item level.

[Dartakan-ragnaros (Dartakan)]

Or you dont feel as bad because you actually get to use it and is not a complete waste.

[Shaldorning-bleeding-hollow]

@Raiimir-stormrage

None of those levels reward any extra loot from +15. Any comp can clear +15s.

I mean more in answering the theoretical question of: “what level of M+ do you need to do to get, from the Great Vault, a 230 ilvl piece of gear such that drops from final 2 bosses of the raid on mythic?”

And my answer to that is, that keystone level, to be equivalent to a boss that requires hundreds of pulls, is a level that is too high to be balanced.

[Kaellthas-trollbane]

Supposedly they will remove or have removed the real chance at duplicate loot in the weekly chest that a streamer discovered a few weeks back. But what about getting a choice of 2 different vers/mastery rings, or 3 different crit/mastery bracers?

[Raistmajere-dawnbringer (Raistmajere)]

I think it’s best to wait and see. I know I haven’t bought the next expansion despite sitting on enough gold/tokens/Blizzard balance to buy the expansion and play for a long time for free but I am waiting to see if PvP gearing really improves or if we remain fodder to M+ and raiders. Some things look bad, some gives hope, but I won’t buy into the hype and will wait to see if it’s worthwhile.

[Shaldorning-bleeding-hollow]

@Raiimir-stormrage

When there is less loot dropping, getting that 2nd Vers/mast ring (or wtv combo you dislike) feels even less rewarding.

No one pushing for mythic ilvl gear cares about the dungeon drops though, very quickly. It could drop 20 items and it wouldn’t matter.

[Dreadsurge-sargeras]

@Kaivax

Bonus rolls no longer exist

…I beg your pardon???

[Jàrèd-dalaran]

and once more blizz screws over people with loot.

No bonus rolls? Well great then we no longer get extra chances when screwed over by RNG.
The weekly chest, while getting a choice, is still ONE item blizz. You are just screwing over casuals more and more with this expansion loot wise. We get less and less, thus taking longer to get stuff, and having MORE of a chance to not get stuff when we finally get a chance to do something.

[Kaellthas-trollbane]

@Shaldorning-bleeding-hollow

No one pushing for mythic ilvl gear cares about the dungeon drops though, very quickly. It could drop 20 items and it wouldn’t matter.

People who do this are currently a small percentage of the population. But that percentage could rise dramatically without a single new player doing elite content if casuals see the move to “git elite or die” as anti-fun.

[Mettlelight-illidan]

@Kaivax

For example, we’re currently targeting item level 213 for Challenger-level PvP, Heroic raiding, or Mythic Keystone dungeons at the +7 difficulty.

Huh, thank you for making M+ a good gear source and no arbitrarily lower than Hmode. 7 might be a bit low of a key to get 213 but that doesn’t really bug me.

I like the idea of needing to ramp up my gear over several weeks in order to start downing content that gets me mythic gear. Tbh I don’t really care about PvP so I am speaking from a M+ perspective only.

[Raiimir-stormrage]

@Dartakan-ragnaros

Or you dont feel as bad because you actually get to use it and is not a complete waste.

That would require rings to actually be upgrades with the wrong stats, which they often aren’t.

@Shaldorning-bleeding-hollow

And my answer to that is, that keystone level, to be equivalent to a boss that requires hundreds of pulls, is a level that is too high to be balanced.

Why ? If a +7 rewards heroic raiding loot in the vault, why would you need more than a +18 to reward 233s in the Vault ?

Obviously, the difficulty in the key is not a factor for vault loot.

@Kaellthas-trollbane

Supposedly they will remove or have removed the real chance at duplicate loot

Yes, duplicate loot meaning the exact same item. Not 2 items for the same slot.

@Mettlelight-illidan

Huh, thank you for making M+ a good gear source and no arbitrarily lower than Hmode. 7 might be a bit low of a key to get 213 but that doesn’t really bug me.

That’s End of week Vault loot.

[Qurari-khazgoroth (Qurari)]

@Kaivax

I’d like to take a step back on this subject and look at the big picture.

As has been observed in the Beta, loot quantities overall are reduced in Shadowlands. Following the proclamation “let loot be loot”, we’re entering into a world without Warforging and Titanforging, where getting an item from relevant content should feel rewarding on its own more often, without needing to hope for random upgrades.

Bonus rolls no longer exist, and the Great Vault captures the value they used to provide to raiders. Non-raiders should also factor in the Great Vault, as completing a Mythic Keystone +15 will award a choice of up to three item-level 226 pieces from the Great Vault.

Currently in the Shadowlands Beta / first tier of the expansion, PvP loot for top ratings caps out at item level 226.

While outdoor world gameplay and professions offer a range of epic gear, the very strongest loot in WoW comes from the three organized multiplayer endgame progression paths: Rated PvP, Mythic Keystone dungeons, and raiding. The design intent is for all three paths to provide parallel progression over the course of a tier, while providing players who engage in multiple paths at a comparable level a faster advancement experience. For example, we’re currently targeting item level 213 for Challenger-level PvP, Heroic raiding, or Mythic Keystone dungeons at the +7 difficulty.

Of course, there could be further adjustments to all of this in the weeks to come before Shadowlands launches.

Yes, lets step back and look at the big picture.

Some of these loot changes (the reducation in mythic+ for example) are about slowing down the acquisition of gear, thus giving extra life to content. And if that’s what you want, fine, but lets not say that suddenly we’re going back to loot being meaningful.

[Shaldorning-bleeding-hollow]

@Kaellthas-trollbane

People who do this are currently a small percentage of the population. But that percentage could rise dramatically without a single new player doing elite content if casuals see the move to “git elite or die” as anti-fun.

It applies to any difficulty really. Since every weekly cache is always higher ilvl than whatever dropped in the dungeons you did

Also, they want quantity of loot reduced to begin with.

[Jàrèd-dalaran]

@Qurari-khazgoroth

Some of these loot changes (the reducation in mythic+ for example) are about slowing down the acquisition of gear, thus giving extra life to content.

EXACTLY all they are doing is padding the /timeplayed metric by making us spam the same content more for less reward.

[Orcnroll-illidan]

Everybody who complained about Titanforging for YEARS, and wanted it gone… enjoy playing the game in shadowlands, where you do the challenge and risk, but get no rewards for a full week, maybe even more. You finally got what you wanted

This game is run by a monthly sub fee, they can’t let you get your oh so precious “bis” gear within a couple of weeks then afk until next content patch, nor was that even a good design before anywyas… this is an ongoing MMO, time spent and effort… should be rewarded, but hey, let’s see how badly this flips.

See you all in 9.1 (where Blizzard will inevitably panic hotfix everything).

[Strýkerswàt-stormrage]

Although I see what your intentions are I think it would best to make some kind of Tier Set bonuses for M+ Dungeon gear so it is only useful for M+ Dungeon runs and can only be used in M+ Dungeons while Raid set bonuses can only be used in Raids.

One of the reasons why a lot of people went on M+ runs is for ilvl gear that was equivalent to Mythic raiding gear, but with how low the gear quality is now doing dungeon runs will not be as rewarding as before especially with it being Heroic ilvl

Doing 10 M+ Runs wont be as satisfying as it used to be just to be able to select at least 1 gear piece per week from the Vault.

The Vault seems more like a reward to pick that one gear piece you’ve wanted the entire week from that one dungeon you’ve been running the most but you weren’t lucky enough for it to drop for you.