This is very NIMBY, and i’m not sure why. “Take it or leave it” is just a bad approach to this. It can be better, we can study the system and improve on it. It doesn’t have to never change just because it’s easy not to.
There’s SO much to like about the feel of this game, as compared to other games, that would make someone prefer this, even if there’s imperfect dungeoneering / pvp systems. It’s our hope to give feedback to improve the system and make it better than it could have ever been, and everyone is happier and better for it…
It doesn’t have to be so binary. Systems can live together and improve the competitive aspect, and personal enjoyment of all persons.
The suggestions here would in no way penalize raiders… That has been Core to this discourse for a long time now…
Why do you consider the weekly chest in your gear calculations. The problem is that PVP’ers and M+ only get 1 chance (On tuesday) to get 1 piece of 226 ilvl loot. Meanwhile, raiders get the great Vault + their Mythic raid. The loot distribution is not fair because raiders have multiple chances to obtain upgrades while PVP’ers and M+ only get one chance per week.
M+ is not a side thing. In this post blizzard stated that PVP, M+ and Raiding should provide the strongest loot. I am just holding them accountable to this.
There are multiple ways to make the gear relevant for raid or Mythic plus. You can add tier sets, piece specific bonus or powers similar to what was implementend for the pvp trinkets
Blizzard can make it so that Mythic Plus Ilvl gear scales higher than 210 when completing keys higher than a 15. Not everyone will be able to complete a +20 in the first season but i believe that you should be rewarded if you can.
My main point with that is, raiding is MEANT to be the end tier of PVE for a reason, it has been for a long time and once you start opening up tons of different ways to gain equal loot in a faster manner, it makes doing it become far less relevant then the few who already pursue it at a high level as it is. Hell I’m not even one of them! When I did play seriously in BfA I only was able to down three or four of the bosses in Uldir on Mythic. You want that to feel the most rewarding because of the time and effort it takes. It’s far easier to get 5 good players together then 20 and then when you start realizing you only need two tanks per raid in comparison to four per M+ Group with the same amount of players, you start getting an imbalence for that aswell.
You’re missing the part where they said over the course of the seasonal tier. Which means…from the Vault. You’re taking out parts and purposely disincluding them. Right after the bit you posted, they said OVER THE COURSE OF THE TIER. You can, over the course of a tier, get your gear up through those methods. M+ the least, PVP’ers and Raiders the most.
This is not true if the reward structure for Mythic + is done properly. There is a way to offer 226 ilvl gear for people that complete +25s keys in season 1 of shadowland. Now will a +25 be possible? Maybe it wont, but atleast putting a breakpoint where your hardcore Mythic plusser can get an upgrade is a benefit.
I agree exactly with this. Character lethality should be based on your investment of skill and time, in an equal and balanced way.
As per your final point of inherently what game mode is the easiest. This a point of massive disagreement, raiding’s most difficult aspect (in my opinion) is the time management. Game mechanics are not (at large) singularly more difficult in Raiding on their face, as PvP or M+
So if you don’t PvP, don’t have time to Raid or do +15’s you are screwed.
Is that what you are saying?
If you are just a casual player, you have no path to getting the top 30% gear.
Hell that sounds almost exactly like classic.
And that will be forcing raiders of Heroic and Mythic alike to be constantly attempting to push to those levels as well, because they’re spammable and get extra loot which will in turn…make raids easier. You’re making it sound as if M+ literally wasn’t created to give PVE’ers more reason to keep logging in outside of Raid Days, it’s only going to lead to people NEEDING to push high end keys more and more and more, when people do have lives outside of Warcraft.
Because M+ is a side piece of PVE? Raiding is the main course, just like Rated PVP is the main course and you’re not expecting to get high end loot from Normal BG’s?
It actually still matters A LOT. Because players like me (pushed to 18+), who have just started to become interested in pushing high M+ or PvP are trying to plan out how we will play. We look to the top players as motivation and they are all raiders and instantly my motivation is killed.
I could have pushed higher than an 18+ this season, but I lost motivation, in part due to the very end game and 490 items/raid trinkets.
Maybe if loot was more balanced there would be larger high level pvp and M+ groups and not just raiders that PvP and M+.
And it does matter. lower players trying to climb the M+ ladder like myself look at the streamers and read the guides. IF this game is RAID OR DIE then that looks really gross for someone that is not interested in CE for the mythic raid but just wants to try to get world top key in M+ (Eventually) for my spec (Guardian).
I agree, that’s the whole point I’m making. Getting 20+(Subs and what not) people that are competent and able to do their jobs at a high levle together on a consistent basis is a LOT harder than getting five. Five people can push M+'s all the time in comparison. That fact ALONE means you need to make Mythic Raiding and Raiding in general worth more then M+.
As for PVP, just bring back resilence maaaan. Make it so PVP gear is the top level of PVP again and this game’s PVP will be so much better.
But it is not a side piece blizzard describes it as an end game mechanic in the same exact sentence.
You cannot blame me for asking blizzard to be accountable to what they said in this exact thread.
Also,
Those people will most likely realise that they are not suited for the M+ content and wait like everyone else to get their gear from their respective content (Raiding).
You are closing a blind eye on the opportunities to improve the loot system because you are too focused on your idea that raid should be the only viable system in this game
That’s not how live works though. Most high end guilds will force you to do M+ Content or find someone that will be willing to nolife it and get that gear that you aren’t willing to put in time to get. Meaning, you have to no life it or find yourself in a crap level guild that won’t really push much of anything and since finding 20+ People to push high level content is MUCH harder then 5+, you need to incentivize people to do it.
Also, yes it is. They said it’s a end game progression path, in the bit about the Vault. AKA you get gear from the vault that is worth Mythic Level Raid Gear, meaning that is your end game gear. Be happy with it.
If you make raid give crazy levels of loot, it’ll make finishing the M+ WAY too easy, most people will feel FORCED to do raid to do M+, even moreso then they already do now, as most serious M+ guilds require you to be pushing raids.
My fix is the actual unfair reality generated by 233/raidtrinkets/raidweapons. It isn’t hypothetical, it is reality for PvP and M+ players.
You’re saying +28 as if that’s the typical content. It’s not. The only reason people are pushing content that high is because the raid/progression tier has been out for it’s longest state, so they’re pretty much maxed out on gear, or as close as maxed out as a Titanforging system allows. Same crap happened in Legion at the final tier.
You’re not seeing those keys pushed regularly throughout an expansion’s life cycle for a reason but always the end. You’re arguing that they should be and that in itself is stupidity as they were never meant to be gear rewarding past +15 for the reason they are SPAMMABLE.